Talk:Prince of Moscow

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by WikiProject Royalty and Nobility.

Middle Ages Low‑importance

	Middle Ages portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Former countries

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country articles

Russia: History Mid‑importance

	Russia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the history of Russia task force.

Lists

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lists, an attempt to structure and organize all list pages on Wikipedia. If you wish to help, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.ListsWikipedia:WikiProject ListsTemplate:WikiProject ListsList articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Prince versus grand prince[edit]

This has been discussed before at Talk:Grand Duchy of Moscow#When did Moscow become a grand principality?. I'll copy my latest comments as they are also relevant here. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:11, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In Prince of Moscow, I have just added: It is unclear when exactly the princes of Moscow started styling themselves "grand prince of Moscow" independently of their title of grand prince of Vladimir, but the addition of "grand" appears relatively late. Vasily II of Moscow referred to himself as "grand prince of Moscow and all Rus'" (velikii kniaz' i vseia Rusi) in a 1451/2 letter to the last Byzantine emperor, Constantine XI Palaiologos. If anyone knows earlier self-identifications of the Daniilovichi as "grand princes of Moscow" specifically, and not just "grand prince" due to Vladimir, that would be interesting. Before 1451, I haven't seen this. The title of "grand prince" is only used in reference to Vladimir, not to Moscow. The whole 14th century is the princes of Tver, Moscow, and Nizhny Novgorod-Suzdal trying to obtain the Golden Horde khan's jarlig for the title of grand prince of Vladimir. Nobody called themselves "grand prince of Tver/Moscow/Nizhny Novgorod-Suzdal", at least not yet. It was all about Vladimir. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:08, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have tagged this as potential OR because the wording sounded a bit different to that of the source. From what I have read the source does not mention specifically when Moscow was first used in front of Vladimir in the title and this being late. It seems to just mention the letter and that's it. Unless I am missing something. Since they were merged, it was no longer just "prince of Moscow". Mellk (talk) 22:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The only time Halperin 1987 uses "grand prince of Moscow" is in reference to Ivan III of Moscow (r. 1462 – 1505). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:12, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Martin 2007 only uses "grand prince of Moscow" in reference to Ivan III of Moscow (r. 1462 – 1505) and Vasili III of Moscow (r. 1505 – 1533). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:17, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Halperin 2022 only says "Grand Prince of Moscow Vasilii III". Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:27, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Janet Martin 2007 does not explore the question either, but has a clear preference in her Index at the end of the book:
- Daniil Aleksandrovich (prince of Moscow), 177 , 178 , 191– 192 , 193 , 199 , 200 , 210
- Iurii Daniilovich (prince of Moscow and grand prince of Vladimir) [page numbers]
- Ivan I Daniilovich Kalita (prince of Moscow and grand prince of Vladimir) [page numbers]
- Semen Ivanovich (prince of Moscow and grand prince of Vladimir) [page numbers]
- Ivan II Ivanovich (prince of Moscow and grand prince of Vladimir) [page numbers]
- Dmitry Ivanovich Donskoi (prince of Moscow and grand prince of Vladimir) [page numbers]
- Vasily I Dmitr'evich (grand prince of Vladimir) [page numbers]
- Vasily II Vasil'evich (grand prince of Vladimir) [page numbers]
- Ivan III Vasil'evich the Great (grand prince of Moscow and Vladimir) [page numbers]
- Vasily III Ivanovich (grand prince of Moscow and Vladimir) [page numbers]
- Ivan IV Vasil'evich the Terrible (grand prince and tsar of Muscovy) [page numbers]
- Fedor Ivanovich (tsar of Muscovy) [page numbers]

We may presume that these identifications were conscious decisions made by Janet Martin. She's confident in saying Dmitry Donskoy was still just a "prince of Moscow" and separately also "grand prince of Vladimir", and that Ivan III was both. The omission of any reference to "Moscow" at all for Vasily I and Vasily II might be because she was unsure whether to identify them as "prince of Moscow" or "grand prince of Moscow". Combined with the previous, we may assume there is consensus on calling Ivan III and successors "grand prince of Moscow". Vasily II might be, but it's based on 1 single letter. For Vasily I we've got no direct evidence, and for Donskoy and earlier Martin explicitly consciously denies them "grand". I therefore recommend we call Ivan III and successors "grand prince of Moscow", and all predecessors of Ivan III "prince of Moscow" as a rule of thumb from now on for new texts. But I do not promote radically changing all existing texts, and strongly discourage any editwarring over this. It's just not very clear, but when in doubt we should follow the literature, and at present, this is what the literature seems to say. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:43, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]