Talk:Sayat-Nova

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Language[edit]

"The color of Pomegranates" is not a "biopic" - a fact that is expressly indicated by the narration at the beginning of the film.

Encyclopedia Britanica is clear that Sayat Nova has written most of his songs in Azerbaijani, where as the article convays otherwise.

Most of his extant songs are in Azeri Turkish; the rest are in Armenian and Georgian.[1]

--Mehrdad 16:06, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to that:
"Sayat-Nova composed verse in Armenian, Azeri, Georgian, and Persian (one of his most famous poems moves between all four). The majority of his surviving ballads are in Azeri, which was the lingua franca of the Caucasus at the time." Tom de Waal. Black Garden, page 80.
This is also going into the article. VartanM, please be kind to check the discussion pages before making controversial edits. Parishan (talk) 21:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any discussion Parishan, and how does coping Persian and presenting it as Azerbaijani help you position? VartanM (talk) 23:20, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how removing as many references to Azeri as possible is an argument. At first, your rationale for removing Azeri was that "there is was no Azeri back then", but the sources presented here indicate otherwise. Now you are removing it claiming it is "copying Persian" when in fact Azeri just happened to use the same script as Persian and given that most of Sayat-Nova's surviving works are in Azeri, it must be mentioned above Persian.
And, Vartan, I just want you to know that your systematic removal of Azerbaijan-related information under POV premises is not a helpful contribution to Wikipedia. I would ask that you assume good faith. Parishan (talk) 01:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First of all you're the one who needs to AGF and stop the baseless accusations. Second of all saying "Azeri and Persian used the same script" means that there was no Azerbaijani language. I don't see the logic in coping and repeating the same thing twice, when Persian is already provided. VartanM (talk) 01:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My accusations are not baseless. Your deliberate removal of references to Azeri is more obvious than you think. You didn't even remember why you removed the Azeri name the first time. You also removed the word Azeri from the article replacing it with Turkic despite the source's use of the word Azeri. You didn't even care enough to direct the word Turkic to a language article, let alone directing it to Azerbaijani language to at least implicitly indicate that Sayat-Nova's "Turkic" is identical to today's Azeri. "Second of all saying "Azeri and Persian used the same script" means that there was no Azerbaijani language" - this is illogical. Who said the existence of a language is defined by its use of a unique script? If Ivan Petrov is spelled in the same way in English and French, it doesn't mean the English language exists and French doesn't. It just means they both use the same script and happen to spell the same name in the same manner. Parishan (talk) 02:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're awfully confrontive lately Parishan. Cool down a little. It's still a redundancy of having the same script repeat the same name twice. -- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 18:31, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Redundancy is not an apt argument to remove every trace of the word Azeri and Azerbaijan from the article. It looks to me like Vartan was pursuing that very goal: [2], despite the fact that the source did use the word Azeri. Parishan (talk) 23:27, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have already asked you nicely to AGF, all I got in return was whole bunch of baseless accusations. Would you PLEASE!!! Assume good faith? Next time I’m reporting you. If you have to provide a source do so, but not De Waal, we’ve been through this many times, since on various occasions editors had only De Waal to provide as a single source, many of his positions were fringe and not worthy of inclusion. Since when did journalists opinions became a reliable source? A Language is the composition of dialects and written transmission. Even if you were to prove such a language existed to begin with, different than the Turkman, this still does not justify your persistent additions where Azeri term would not normally fit. What value does modern Azeri alphabet has here? Sayat Nova never written anything in modern Azeri. Have you ever addressed this? You answered me with a load of bad faith assumptions. He is an Armenian who was born in Tiflis, neither where he was born nor his ethnicity justify your addition. How was he writing his name in his Turkic writings? How his name was written in Turkic writings? On both account, it was Persian. If you have any proof of a distinct way it was written in Turkic please provide a source or else it is legitimate that we delete that. We don’t add foreign names for the sake of it. VartanM (talk) 20:32, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As for Azeri, his writings were considered as Turkish from other sources. (eg. [3]) And even your sources calls it Azeri Turkish, they do not consider it as a distinct Azeri language, but Turkish of Azerbaijan. His father was from the Ottoman Empire. VartanM (talk) 20:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Vartan, why are you making threats? How exactly did I insult you? I am just sharing my opinion following my observations of your activity in this article. I believe I have reasons to doubt that the deletion of every mentionning of the Azeri language and Azerbaijan in one single edit, contrary to the presented sources, under the POV premise that "there was no Azeri back then" and later that "if Azeri and Persian used the same script, it means there was no Azeri" resulted from some kind of misunderstanding or was purely coincidental.
"In any case, early 1758 seems to have been a time of feverish activity on the part of Sayat-Nova in the Azeri field. Although one cannot be sure, since Azeri was the lingua franca of the Caucasus and well understood at the Georgian court, it is possible that Sayat-Nova performed his songs in this language in public, in and outside Tiflis and T'elavi <...> The 1758 Azeri poems are mainly didactic ogut'lama (öyüdlämä) but there are four fairly conventional songs."
Dowsett C. J. F. Sayat-Nova. Peeters Publishers. 1996. p.173. ISBN 9068317954
"Sayat'-Nova devoted another poem to Surb Karapet, written half in Azeri and half in Armenian. The poem is a mukhammaz, composed of stanzas of five verses. In the first stanza each first half-line is in Azeri, each second one is in Armenian, while in the following four stanzas only the fifth verse starts with a half-verse in Azeri, the four others starting in Armenian. It relates the facts about John the Baptist, well known from the gospel, in accordance with Sayat'-Nova's habit, it would seem of dealing with Christian topics in his Azeri poems."
Jan J. Ginkel, Hendrika Lena Murre-van den Berg, Theo Maarten van Lint. Redefining Christian Identity: Cultural interaction in the Middle East since the Rise of Islam. Peeters Publishers. 2005. p.356. ISBN 9042914181
"Among the classical representatives of this art (one of the world's greatest masters of 'sound-painting' according to the poet Valery Bryusov) was Sayat'-Nova (Arut'in Sayadyan, 1717–95) <...> He composed in Georgian and Azerbaijani as well as Armenian."
Stanley Sadie. The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians. Macmillan ; Grove's Dictionaries of Music [etc.]. 1980. p.343. ISBN 0333231112
I am not going to prove to you that that was the exact way Sayat-Nova spelled his name in Azeri. It is like asking me to prove that Ivan Susanin spelled his name in Russian as Иван Сусанин. There is only one way to spell his name in Azeri using the Arabic script and it is in the article. The modern Azeri spelling was provided because literal Azeri does not use the Arabic script any more. In the article about Sultan Selim I we see both the Ottoman Turkish and modern Turkish spellings provided, even though I am pretty sure Selim I did not use Roman letters to write in Turkish. Finally, Azeri must be given more credit than Persian and Georgian, since Sayat-Nova's surviving songs are mostly in Azeri. Knowing this fact, how can one be saying 'We don’t add foreign names for the sake of it'? Parishan (talk) 23:27, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand this entire alphabet talk at all. Do we spell pre-1917 Russian names in old Russian script? If not, why cannot we use modern Azerbaijani alphabet, after all that was the language Sayat-Nova wrote most of his poetry in? Grandmaster (talk) 18:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"that was the language Sayat-Nova wrote most of his poetry in": thats not true, Grandmaster. Only one source, pro-Azeri non-specialist journalist de Waal says most part of "survived poems", and then no any reliable research on Sayat-Nova proving your words. Lets to not misinterprete even the unreliable sources! Andranikpasha (talk) 20:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From the surviving works 127 are in Turkish of Azerbaijan, about 35 in Georgian and 68 in Armenian, few in Persian or Arabic. Of these the Azerbaijani Turkish ones, are written in Georgian and Armenian with a lot of Armenian and Georgian words and phrases mixed in. If this can be sourced and implemented the dispute over how much of hsi works survoved in what language should simmer down. The current language in the article is ambiguous. CJ F Dowsett has an entire book dedicated to Sayat Nova btw.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 21:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"...the Azerbaijani Turkish ones, are written in Georgian and Armenian". Do you mean that they are written in the Azeri language but using the Armenian or Georgian alphabets? Meowy 20:50, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Dowsett, among others, calls it Azeri. Being a neutral and well-educated scholar, he does not question the fact that "Azerbaijani Turkish" is an alternative name for the Azerbaijani language, and doesn't mean "the (Anatolian) Turkish spoken in Azerbaijan." The excerpts are presented above. Parishan (talk) 03:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The removal of modern Azerbaijani in latin script is more than appropriate in the beginning, since it is undue wait, and an example of rabid azerbaijani nationalism spreading to all facets of armenian articles. Perso-arabic remains, which would cover the way his name would have been written in both scripts at the time, and content covers the proper "Azeri Trukic" writing. CaptainGio (talk) 16:57, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fictitious Azerbaijani Name[edit]

There is really something seriously annoying about having to revert this. please do not be disruptive. you know it is not an appropriate edit summary. Do not pretend there is concensus or that name has any relevance.Shamshadin (talk) 06:09, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Persian Spelling of Name[edit]

Sayyid-e-Nawa سید‌ نوا —Preceding unsigned comment added by HussaynKhariq (talk • contribs) 11:34, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Recent revert by Tuscumbia[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sayat-Nova&action=historysubmit&diff=403349052&oldid=402790412

I have reverted it back to the original. Tuscumbia's blind revert reintroduced grammatical errors which my earlier edit removed. It is "Haghpat Monastery" not "the Haghbat monastery", a person is "ordained as a priest", not "ordained a priest". Tuscumbia's revert also removed two fact tags. Most of the discussion on this page has been about what languages Sayat Nova wrote in - so I decided that getting some decent references into the article would settle this matter. A general work (such as that of de-Waal, a non-expert in this field and whose cited book, beyond a single sentence, is not about Sayat Nova) is NOT suitable as a source for specialised material to do with Sayat Nova. My request for proper sources, made through the insertion of fact tags, is justifiable, and the tags should not be removed again. 93.97.143.19 (talk) 13:59, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources are pretty reliable. When De Waal doesn't fit your agenda, you'll always question him, won't you? He's an expert in the conflict and the cultures of the region. Tuscumbia (talk) 14:58, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh wise one bringing pretty reliable sources, please tell me the title of the book by De Waal that you want to use as a reference? Is it titled "Sayat Nova"? (I didn't think it was, but maybe I was wrong, oh wise one). Is its primary subject Sayat-Nova? (I didn't think it was). Are any of its chapters titled Sayat Nova or dealing in any depth with Sayat Nova? (please correct me, oh wise one, if I am wrong in saying "none"). Please tell my how it counts as a specialist source on Sayat-Nova? How many pages in that book are about Sayat Nova, how many sentences mention Sayat Nova, how many words are there about Sayat Nova? At the foot of what sage, what expert in Caucasian folklore, did the all-knowing De-Waal learn, after many years of dilgent and attentive study (and without consulting any sources he felt worth citing), the is-and-outs of every aspect of Sayat-Nova's life and works to the extent that his opinion on Sayat Nova, given in just a few words in a book about different subject, takes precedence over all other sources to the extent that other sources are not needed - and even to ask for them is to be accused of having an agenda? 93.97.143.19 (talk) 15:58, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Birthdate[edit]

The most possible birth-date of Arutin Sayat-Nova is 1722. There are 8 points of proof, presented by Paruyr Sevak.

1. Georg Akhverdyan thought of 1712 because of the author's comment to his first armenian song written in 1752. "I, Arutin, (have) tested myself with every kind of songs up to 30 years, but I've learnt to play the Kamancha, the Tchongur and the Tambura due to St.Karapet". The first dated song by Sayat-Nova was written in 1742. Thus, 1742-30=1712. But Sayat-Nova was 30 when he wrote his first Armenian song. So, 1751-30=1722.

2. There is an autobiographical (Javsatlama) song (January 3, 1750) in Turkish, on 75-76th pages of the Davtar. In the 28th line we read: "Since the age of 20, I've sell'd diamonds to beggars", which means he started to compose at the age of 20. We know that his first dated song was written in 1742. Thus, 1742-20=1722.

3. In the 27th line of the same song, we read: "At the age of 19, I travel'd across Habaşu-Hindustan". It is related to the "Indian campaign" by Nadir-Shah, which started in 1738. Nadir returned to Iran in January 1741. Sayat-Nova also joined him with the group of Givi Amilakhvar, and not with Erecle II, and not as a musician (Then he was 19, but he started to compose at the age of 20).

4. In 1741, after the Indian campaign, Nadir raided to Oman, which Sayat-Nova could name "Habaşu-Hindustan" as well. Nadir returned in 1743.

5. There is a Turkish aliflama-karaheja on the 101th page of the Davtar, written on March 4, 1755. In the 19th line, we read: "Sayat-Nova reached hey to vov". Hey is the 6th letter of the Arabic alphabet, and Vav is the 27th. 6+27=33. So, 1755-33=1722.

6. There is a Georgian song, written in 1759, when he was finally fired from Erecle's chamber. In the 9th line we read: "With the Georgians have I wasted my youth". If he were born in 1712, he would be 46, and he would never call himself "young".

There is a Turkish zinjirlama on the 65th page of the Davtar, written on May 5, 1753. In the 26th line we read: "It's a pity you're an adult, too young". If he were 41 (b.1712) or 36 (b.1717 by Morus Hasratian's version), he would never call himself "young".

There is a Turkish varsagh, written on June 10, 1758. In the 10th line, we read: "I was wet, I got burnt with the dry". Saying "I was wet", he meant "I was young". If he was born in 1712, then he would be 46 years old; and he would never call himself "young". The situation changes, if he were 36; then he could complain to himself about "getting burnt with the dry".

7. There is another Georgian song written in 1759 and dedicated to Erecle II. In the 20th line we read: "You are my spiritual parent". To be a parent (even a Spiritual one), Erecle should be older than Sayat-Nova. The king was born on November 7, 1720.

8. There is a Turkish karaheja on the 87th page of the Davtar. In the 20th line we read. "Yazumişı te u alif, iki kaf". The line means either "Let us weep", or "my age is TE, ALIF, two KAF". Te means both 9 and 400, Alif is 1, and Kaf is 20. Moreover, the first verse of the song is on the 65th page (left incomplete), and it's followed by another zinjirlama on Ç, written on May 5, 1753. But the word "takak" has TWO ALIFS. So, 400+1+1+20=422 (by the Georgian Chronicon, started in 1312). So, 422+1312=1754. Now the age: TE u ALIF, IKI (2), KAF = 9+1+2+20=32. So, the birth-date is: 1754-32=1722.

Anyway, we must remember: nobody but Sayat-Nova himself gives us the proof.

--Paruyr Sevak, 1966.


P.S. Sayat-Nova's real name was Arutin. The traditional birthdate is July 14. But he was named Arutin (arm.Harutyun=Ressurection) beacuse was born on the Easter Day (The Armenians of those age were too religious). The 1722 date was April 5. So, the full birthdate is April 5, 1722 AD.

--46.71.77.190 (talk) 14:16, 20 August 2012 (UTC)Artem Andraeasyan.[reply]

Georgian[edit]

What makes him Georgian? And why link "Georgian" to Georgian people? Both his parents were Armenian. --Երևանցի talk 19:03, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See examples:
See WP:OTHERSTUFF. Answer to my question. What makes him Georgian? And why link "Georgian" to Georgian people? --Երևանցի talk 19:33, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Let's see what neutral (non-Armenian and non-Georgian) sources say:
This is clear POV-pushing by you. --Երևանցի talk 19:49, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Yes Of course he is Armenian and It's not disputed my armenian bro, but saiat nova lived in Georgia, and therefore he was Armenian who lived in Georgia this means that, he was Georgian-Armenian

see:

And? Does that make them ethnically Georgian? All creditable sources call him Armenian. This is simple POV-pushing by you. --Երևանցի talk 20:03, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
NO!NO!NO! Georgian-Armenian means that, Person is an ethnic Armenian, who lived/lives in Georgia. The same applies to the other cases.

--MEDGEORGIA  talk  20:10, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Two problems here. As of right now, "Georgian" links to Georgians (which is about the ethnic group). Second, why is Georgia relevant here? As I said, all creditable sources call him Armenian. --Երևանցի talk 20:12, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
He never lived in Armenia. Was the son of Armenian immigrants. see example: Kim Kardashian - Kimberly Noel "Kim" Kardashian is an American television personality, fashion designer, model, and actress.'--MEDGEORGIA  talk  20:29, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Uhm, don't take this conversation to somewhere else. We're discussing Sayat Nova here, not Kim Kardashian. She is first of all American and her Armenian ethnicity has no role in her life. See the difference? You are simply ignoring my comments. Read them over. Both Encyclopædia Britannica and the Great Soviet Encyclopedia‎ call him Armenian. And since you prefer to talk about Kim Kardashian let me ask you this question again. Why link Georgian to Georgian people article? You just said that he was "the son of Armenian immigrants" and did he become a Georgian just because he was born in Tiflis? --Երևանցի talk 20:40, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You do not understand the importance of Wikipedia. Therefore I appeal to administrators to identify the true--MEDGEORGIA  talk  20:48, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. I've been editing Wikipedia for several years now, while you started editing it last year and made only 150 edits. And I'm the one who doesn't "understand the importance of Wikipedia"? Okay. Sounds reasonable. --Երևանցի talk 20:55, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
U r inadequate my bro! I am active in ka.wikipedia, and I am writing here because seeking to falsify the history by Armenians. But I do not hate Armenians, contrary I love them.--MEDGEORGIA  talk  21:10, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Agreement: Sayat-Nova (Armenian: Սայաթ-Նովա; Georgian: საიათნოვა) (born as Harutyun Sayatyan (Armenian: Հարություն Սայադյան; 1712 or 1722 – 22 September 1795), was Georgian-born Armenian, who lived in Tbilisi.

OK? --MEDGEORGIA  talk  21:14, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This a slippery slope. Should the Ilia Chavchavadze article introduce him as a Russian-Georgian or Russia-born Georgian? Anyway, I suppose the latter form is preferable if the birthplace of the individual must be emphasized. What's more important is expanding this article, which has been in a pitiful state for some time. Perhaps an editor can determine what parts of the more expansive corresponding Ukrainian and Russian articles are worth translating. What would be most helpful is Dowsett's monograph, which is rather difficult to obtain. Jackal 09:36, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Azeri Turkish?[edit]

What is "Azeri Turkish"? Is it Azerbaijani language or Turkish language? Please clarify and correct it in the lede. Jaqeli 00:52, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Yerevantsi: Please see this. Jaqeli 13:19, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It should probably be changed to Azerbaijani, although during his lifetime the language was not known by that name. From my own experience, it was called simply "Turkic" or "Tatar". --Երևանցի talk 18:08, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Yerevantsi: Lifetime or not it's still Azerbaijani. As for "Tatar", indeed, Georgians also knew them by this term which is sometimes used even now. Jaqeli 19:07, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It will be what suitable sources say it is. However, 18th-century Azeri Turkish is not 20th century Azerbaijani; I doubt "Azeri Turkish" needs clarification, it is fairly clear what is meant by it. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:14, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

'Azeri Turkish' is an anachronism. No such language existed at the time of Sayat Nova. He simply used Turkish or 'Turkic' as one of the languages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.187.123 (talk) 15:39, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnonym "Azeri" and toponym "Azerbaijan": clarification needed[edit]

In order to clear a question of ethnonym “Azeri" and toponym “Azerbaijan” that are mentioned in the article in relation to Sayat Nova, who, along with his native Armenian, also composed in several other languages, including Azerbaijani, I suggest that an external link to the Qajar dynasty be added. It will cool off modern Azeris posting here, in that the Qajar dynasty was a Persian royal dynasty of Turkic origin. From 1785 until the beginning of the 20th century, when the dynasty ruled, there was no such a separate nation, more so a nation-state, outside Persian Azarbaijan as Azerbaijanis, the ones that now exist in the part of the South Caucasus. The link to the Qajars will also demonstrate that Shah Mohammad Khan Qajar, who beheaded a genius Armenian musician for refusing to convert to Islam, was of Turkic origin.71.191.3.226 (talk) 22:19, 30 April 2017 (UTC)Davidian[reply]

Why are we trying to figure out what Sayat means?[edit]

Isnt Sayat just taken from his surname?? Why are we trying to derive that? That would be like saying that Mika's stage name is from the Basque word for magpie. —Soap— 12:35, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

His name in Persian is 'Sayyad-e Nava' which means literally 'Hunter of Songs' or 'Hunter of Poems'. It is not his 'surname' but a nick-name or pen-name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.187.123 (talk) 15:41, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Britannica[edit]

I think I was somewhat mistaken in my edit summary (diff). While the Google books source is from 60s, had no pages cited and is WP:AGEMATTERS, the Britannica article wasn't a book but a short article [5]. Regardless, as far as I'm aware, Britannica isn't really a proper WP:RS and everyone could edit it like Wikipedia. Also apparent by the cited article itself, "This article was most recently revised and updated by Amy Tikkanen.". I've seen other more experienced editors describe Britannica as "not proper RS" [6].

If there are good reasons to include that Britannica article as a source, I'm open to listen. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 12:32, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Sayat-Nova&oldid=1205207083"