Talk:Polabian Slavs

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Article title[edit]

I am confused about the title of this article and want to clarify some concepts before I begin adding information about these tribes. While this article describes all of the Slavs west of the Oder as "Polabians", Eric Christiansen's The Northern Crusades describes the Polabians as merely one tribe among many. Christiansen, an Englishman of Danish ancestry, writes that

From the Saxon and Danish frontiers to the Trave were settled the Wagrians, and from the Trave to the Warnow the Abotrites – two kindred peoples loosely united with the Polabians of the Elbe basin under one dominant dynasty [the house of de:Niklot]. From the Warnow to Rügen, round the Oder mouths and up the Peene, was an unamalgamated group of tribes which was given the collective name of Liutizians or Wilzians – 'terrible' or 'wolf' people; the northernmost, on Rügen and the coast facing, were the Rugians or Rani. The languages spoken by the Abotrites and Liutizians were somewhat different from those of their Sorb and Lusatian neighbors to the south, and are classified as the West Lechic; the East Lechic include the languages of the Poles and the nation which people the remainder of the West Slav coastland from the Oder eastwards to the Vistula – the Pomeranians, or 'dwellers on the shore', later differentiated towards Danzig by the names Pomerelian and Cassubian ('shaggy-coatmen')" (p. 27).

Christiansen later clarifies the main settlements of each tribe: the Wagrians at Oldenburg (Holstein), the Polabians at Ratzeburg, the Abotrites at Veligrad (Mecklenburg) and Rostock, the Rugians at Arkona and Garz, the Liutizians at Demmin (later controlled by the Pomeranians), and the Pomeranians at Szczecin.

The German Polaben article describes the Polabians as merely a tribe of the Abotrite confederation/alliance, which matches Christiansen's text. I might be mistaken as I do not speak Polish, but it seems to me that in Poland the Slavs west of the Oder are generally known as "Polabian Slavs" (the general German concept of "Wends"), while in Germany there is a differentiation between the Wenden/Elbslawen (Wends / "Elbe Slavs") and the "Polabians proper" (the aforementioned tribe living near the Wagrians and the Abotrites). The Polabian language, on the other hand, seems to include the dialects of the aforementioned tribes (except for the Pomeranians) under one blanket term, even in German, and is fine where it is.

With that in mind, I suggest that the article be retitled Elbe Slavs, a term used in English, to avoid confusion between the general Polabian term and the individual Polabian tribe. Alternately, it could be merged with Wends. Olessi 00:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(UTC)

Elbe Slavs is a neologism, and quite offensive at that. The Slavic name for the river is not Elbe but Laba. These Slavs are known as Polabian in their own language, in other Slavic languages, and in scholarly literature. I may refer you to the article and map in the Great Soviet Encyclopaedia, available online here. According to this authoritative source, the Polabian Slavs is a general name for all Slavs formerly living between the Elbe and the Oder. Their three main tribes were Lusatian Sorbs, Veleti (lyutichi) and Obodrites (bodrichi). --Ghirla ^-трёп- 15:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ghirlandajo, thanks for your response. However, I'm not sure I would agree that the Great Soviet Encyclopedia is authoritative. Appleseed (Talk) 16:21, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Polabian" indeed usually refers to the "Polabian Slavs" as a general term, but it also refers in Germanic sources to a specific tribe of the Abotrite alliance, the Polaborum. On the external map, this would be the Połabianie, aka Polabingi (Adam of Bremen) or Polabi Helmold von Bosau). Their main settlement was Ratzeburg (Lauenburg), named after their chief Ratibor. A related tribe living to their south was the Draväner (Dravänopolaben, Drawenoslawen) in the Drawehn region (Drzewianie) in Lüchow-Dannenberg, Lower Saxony. These Slavs are what inspired the Hanoverian Wendland. Henry the Lion eventually defeated the Polabians and Draväner, establishing the County of Ratzeburg with Heinrich von Badewide.Olessi 00:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While I can understand keeping this article at its present name as it is the most commonly used term, I am willing to add information about how "Polabian" also has a different meaning in German. Olessi 00:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agriculture[edit]

Amazon word search in Christiansen reference Northern Crusades p. 21 reads "Wends peasants raising corn, flax," but wouldn't corn be impossible in medieval times, when it was historically "wheat, rye, and flax." Maybe the modern day Sorbs grow corn, but the heading in this article is Peasantry. - Athrash | ^Talk 04:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have the book handy at the moment, but I added the information based on what was in the text. Since there is doubt about the info, I have no objection to solely listing flax. Olessi 18:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The older/original meaning of the word 'corn' is more like 'grain' - dictionary.com lists (among other definitions) for instance 'Chiefly British: Any of various cereal plants or grains, especially the principal crop cultivated in a particular region, such as wheat in England or oats in Scotland.' so in this case "Wends peasants raising corn, flax," would mean 'Wends peasants raising [whatever their local grain was] and flax' 72.88.92.188 (talk) 16:16, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

'Dissimilated'[edit]

The article says the 'Polabian' Slaves were "dissimilated" by the Germans and Danes. Is that different from being "assimiliated"? Dis makes it sound like a negative term.

I'm also curious about the term "Polabian." Is it an allusion to the Poles, i.e. being Polish-like, or something else?

Sca (talk) 20:32, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Polabie" means a territory that extends "till the Elbe" ("po Labe"). Polabians, just like Polish tribes, belonged to the same group which spoke closely related Lechitic dialects. Polabians (Obodrites and Veleti) came to Germany from Poland in VII-VIII century and shared the same archeological Sukow culture. So, before their language went extinct, they were linguistically and culturally closely related to the tribes of Poland. Quite unlike the Lusatian Sorbs, who formed a separate linguistic branch (Serbolusatian) within the West Slavic family, in-between the Lechitic branch and the Czecho-Slovakian.

Look here:

http://www.rkp-montreal.org/en/Mapadoslaviclanguages2.gif —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.10.105.236 (talk) 20:40, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not precisely. Polabian does not mean that it extends till the Elbe, but rather referring that the tribe was located along or even upon the river. Compare it to Pomerians, meaning along the sea; Podolians, meaning upon the lower areas. To be located in the vicinity would be utilized prefix pre- or pri-. During the times of Crusades (see Northern Crusades) the Baltics (Baltic Sea region) were heavily Germanized as part of enforced Cristinization, creating new national polity Baltic Germans who were later assimilated closely with Russians. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 14:21, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why no article in german?[edit]

Hahaha, what a false, history-rewriting hypocrites! No, Polabian Slavs have never existed and don't exist. The whole East Germany, especially Prussians are not ethno-genetically, although germanized, Slavs... sure :D

"Polabian Slavs have never existed and don't exist"? Heuaktion? --Methodios (talk) 06:09, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nisanen[edit]

Nisanen = Dresden/Elbe (and not near the Saale). See Gau Nisan and Dresden Basin (=Elbtalkessel). --Methodios (talk) 06:09, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Map[edit]

Shepherd's map is highly inaccurate. Poland as a single entity of the size shown on this map is a fantasy. Duke Boleslaw III 'the Wrymouth' (r.1102-3) died a feudatory of the German Emperor. Marzovia, for instance, was still a separate Dukedom as late as 1200.2A00:23C4:B63A:1800:C15A:5C7:D276:CC48 (talk) 19:23, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Slavs in Germany" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Slavs in Germany. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 18:55, 7 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]