Talk:Marjorie Bruce

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Was there really a cage...?[edit]

The Book "Girl in a Cage" is historical fiction, not a sort of scientific source. The author herself, Jane Yolen, noted that she heard about the imprisonment in a cage from some folk song (see: [1]).

This, however, is supposed to be an encylopedia presenting facts or at least marking fiction and assumptions appropriately.

Maybe the article should be split into the scienfific "facts" and "Marjorie Bruce in fiction"... - or is there any historical proof, document, ... disclosing this cage-fact? --LostJedi 10:48, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As I see, 24.214.181.57 changed the text so that Edward only planned to incage Marjorie, without any evidence for that... So my question is still unanswered. LostJedi, 5 May 2006

imprisonment 1307-1314[edit]

do i really understand correctly that betwwen 1307-1314 she first spend 4 years in a cage and additionally 7 years in a convent? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.159.151.210 (talk) 15:52, 30 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Last Words?[edit]

Could we please have a source for Marjorie's alleged last words? I suspect they are pure invention. Rcpaterson 22:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I wondered about this myself. Since she had a pretty difficult life it seems a pity to deprive her of her claim to triumph. However her phraseology seems surprisingly modern, and at the time her son was born it was far from clear that he would become king. PatGallacher 22:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
She seems to be speaking modern Scots, but she would actually have spoken Norman French or the Northumbrian dialect of Middle English. Here is an example of Scots speech from that time [2] you will see that it is a good deal broader that this (admittedly very brief) quote. PatGallacher 23:45, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Fredome
Middle French or Gaelic surely; English for talking to horses. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for puting a citation request on this page, but I think it will be a long time coming. Let's be frank: these words are unmitigated rubbish. What she really said was, and I quote-"Oh, great; a boy-the three wise women told me he will be king hereafter, on the death of his uncle (not yet born} on 22 February 1371. I can rest easy." This was all in broad Scots, ye ken,-or Gaelic, or perhaps even in Norman French (or perhaps it was Middle French); but since I have no knowledge of any of these languages I have provided an approximate English translation, somehow or other. I will remove the offending words in the very near future; unless by some miracle a reference-a credible reference-is forthcoming. Rcpaterson 08:03, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The offending words have now been excised. Rcpaterson 03:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The quote, of course, does look like rubbish (which is why I haven't commented before), given the fake-Scottish English it is written in, and the fact that the original author has done nothing to confirm it.
But - just my thoughts - would such words, were they uttered at that time, be so unlikely? Remember that the King had no male heir at that time by his second wife (admittedly because Elizabeth had spent a lot of their marriage locked up in England), which would have made her son a likely heir to Robert the Bruce (the alternative being Edward Bruce, Robert's brother, who was not yet dead). I don't see why Marjorie couldn't, at the time of her death, have had very good reason to think that her son, the first legitimate new-born male to the Bruce family in quite a while, would have inevitably succeeded to the crown. Michaelsanders 20:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I read Steve Boardman's Early Stewart Kings last month, and started revising Robert II on the basis of my illegible notes. Among the bits I've done in a sandbox is this footnote: "Robert's birth is sometimes described as being by caesarian section, but this is uncertain. Marjorie's death is, however, placed in 1316 or 1317: Barrell, p. 121; Boardman, p. 3; Brown, p. 214." So, Marjorie may have died giving birth to Robert, but it's less than certain. Her famous last words do not appear in Boardman's book. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Isabella of Buchan[edit]

Recently, I read 'The Greatest Traitor - The Life of Sir Roger Mortimer', in which the Scottish Wars (in which Mortimer fought) received some mention. Among passages relevant to this subject were these: "[Bruce] sent his womenfolk, including his sister and mistress, northward with his brother, Sir Neil Bruce, to Kildrummy Castle...[King Edward] had not captured Robert Bruce himself, buthe had in his custody the man's wife, mistres, brother, sisters and daughter...the most vindictive punishments of all were reserved for Bruce's sister, Mary, and his mistress, Isabel, Countess of Buchan." I accordingly added a reference in this article to Isabella being Bruce's mistress. It was removed for not being proven. Who is in the wrong?

Also, there was no mention of Edward having intended to cage Marjorie. Michaelsanders 16:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Caesarean section?[edit]

As nobody has been able to back this up I have deleted it. The claim that Robert II was delivered by Caesarean section seems dubious, since in those days this was only done where the mother had already died, the first Caesarean sections which the mother survived were only carried out in the 18th century. PatGallacher 18:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the article about Caesarean section still states that Robert II was delivered by c-section. Surtsicna (talk) 22:38, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This statement in the article is not sourced and therefore should not be taken as gospel. PatGallacher (talk) 23:14, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Heir?[edit]

Is there a clear reference to her ever being the heir? I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Scots Parliament recognised Edward Bruce as the heir at one point. Rules of succession were less clear cut in those days. PatGallacher 13:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to Barrow's Robert Bruce, p. 381, she was heir, after Robert and Edward, by tailzie in the Act of 27 April 1315 at the Ayr Parliament. Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And at last the Records of the Parliaments of Scotland website is up and running, so you can see the "ordinance and statute entailing the crown on the heirs male of the king, Edward Bruce and then on the heirs general of the king" at http://www.rps.ac.uk (Robert I, 1315, 26 April). Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:35, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Grandmother[edit]

I don't know where you're getting this "erroneously" from about her grandmother being Marjorie Bruce. As she married a Robert Bruce/de Brus it seems obvious that we can describe her as Marjorie Bruce/de Brus. Any doubt or dispute about how to describe her should be dealt with on her talk page, not here. PatGallacher (talk) 10:31, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you read the edit-summary you would know.[3] Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 10:35, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It would have been better if you had stated your reasons here, they are: "it's erroneous because women in scotland didn't take their husband's name until the modern period".

That doesn't clinch the argument, a lot of historical figures have been retrospectively named, e.g. the regnal numbers of monarchs. Hatnotes are for the purpose of directing people to relevant articles, not getting into lengthy discussions about various issues, see WP:HATNOTE.

Also, they should go directly to the relevant article, not through a redirect, at least in the absence of some substantial reason. PatGallacher (talk) 11:12, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, since it is wrong to say she "was also called Marjorie Bruce", it doesn't matter what the HATNOTE issues are. That some modern writers have called her that is another matter; it's fairly common for modern writers to make such mistakes. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:58, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Walter Stewart[edit]

The article said "Walter FitzAllan, 6th High Steward of Scotland distinguished himself in the battle and was rewarded the hand of the adolescent princess. He changed his name to Stewart after his position; a common practice; and was the founder of the dynasty", but Walter Stewart, 6th High Steward of Scotland says he was the son of James Stewart, 5th High Steward of Scotland. I think there's been some confusion with Walter fitz Alan, the first High Steward, from 200 years earlier. I've removed the 2nd sentence I quoted. Rojomoke (talk) 23:17, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Year of death[edit]

Most accounts say she died very soon after Robert was born in 1316, but Penman's biography of her father says she died in 1317. Can anyone clarify? PatGallacher (talk) 19:25, 14 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Reliable sources[edit]

Reading this article, it is difficult to tell what's history and what's legend. I wanted to rewrite it but I could not find a comprehensive account of her life to start with. Does anyone know who wrote the ODNB entry? I cannot access it. Surtsicna (talk) 16:26, 3 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree, but it may not be very easy to separate fact from legend, somebody should go away and consult recent scholarship. PatGallacher (talk) 21:53, 4 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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