Talk:Jewish-American organized crime

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UK?[edit]

I don't think this article is intentionally anti-semetic, I do agree some have edited to suit their own veiw points.

There is no denying there was Jewish gangsters, as there was Irish, Italian and Polish gangsters in America. It's important to remember these groups have something in common they were alien in a country who wasn't exactly friendly to them, any way I degress do you think we should mention people like Jack "Spot" in the UK? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elitejcx (talk • contribs) 20:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-semitism[edit]

Is this anti-Semitism? This article has existed for a while, I don't know if it's nonsense since the gangsters linked were in fact Jewish, and Murder, Inc. says that a lot of people in it were Jewish? Luigi30 (Taλk) 12:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's vaguely anti-semetic. There wasn't, to my knowledge, a "Jew Mafia" organized on the basis of being Jewish (who'd run the Speakeasies on Friday nights?) They weren't linked together by a nationality the way the Sicilian mob was. It was more that they happened to be Jewish. I'd see more justification for a page of "Famous Jewish Mobsters". --Happylobster 16:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The "Jewish Mafia" is mentioned repeaditley on anti-semetic websites [1]. There have never been any Jewish criminals, Jews are god's chosen people and thus cannot commit crimes. These is little more than anti-semetic lies. --24.83.203.198 00:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

didn't the jews kill the canaanites? or something. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.85.248 (talk) 22:13, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No criminals, no sports heroes, and no jewelers. They're all Pakistani. --Happylobster 03:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

External links[edit]

The page itself is accurate. I deleted two anti-Semitic links. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.191.210.134 (talk • contribs)

  • I've cleaned up the former stub and have substantially rewritten the article. Regarding the two external links in question however, it is generally expected on Wikipedia to disscuss an issue such as this on the article's talk page before making major changes to an article. MadMax 16:36, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-Semitic reference ?[edit]

  • I have deleted a link to a page that is home to remarks of a bigot and pathetic individual. The highly offensive remarks by Dr. Pierce should not be associated with Wikipedia, a website of integrity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.107.204.182 (talk • contribs)
24.107.204.182,
I've restored the link so the issue can be discussed before removing the link as a reference, particularly if it is used as a reference in the article. In future, simply removing an external link could be viewed (especially from an anonymous IP) could be viewed as an act of vandalism. MadMax 04:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Looking through the article, while it does have information of the present day Russian Mafia in the United States (in which the author mentions is predominantly Jewish), the article is largely unsourced and dosen't seem to contain any useful information on Jewish-American organized crime prior to the 1990s. However, it might warrent mention of the opinions of at least one scholar regarding the article itself. MadMax 04:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Look, yes, there have been, and are Jewish-American gangs and such, just as there are Italian, Irish, Mexican, and African ones. Just as there are Christian and Pagan ones (yes, there are gangs based on religion. Most Mafia organizations are almost as based on religion as on race, and there are several smaller pagan gangs. As for Muslim ones... that I do not know) By the way, 24.83.203.198 is more bigoted than most neo-nazis i've met. "There have never been any Jewish criminals"... a bit of a racial superiority complex, there, don't you think? I can name several. Meyer Lansky (Hyman Roth from The Godfather is based off of him), Otto Berman, David Berman, Harry Horowitz, and, of course, the man with the coolest name ever, William Lipshitz. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.175.14.206 (talk • contribs)

The site www.ety.com is in whole revisionist and anti-Semitic. This article is not the only one which is disputed. Please, refere to the list [2] and other anti-Semitic sites support that list and very low estimates ([http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php/holocaust-thread-all-holocaust-discussion-285403p453.html?t=285403&page=453 Stormfront] and Dannish Holocoust deniel site). So, I removed the link. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 20:05, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vegas Syndacate?[edit]

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/commentary/2004/apr/30/516782598.html

Should this be put in a new section (Present Day?) or in Post War? Or should it be in Israeli organized crime? From what I can tell the Sun is not affiliated with the neo-Nazi propagandists like David Duke or his followers. Any thoughts?--Son of More 04:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm..interesting development (considering Las Vegas is alegedly considered an "open city"). In my own opinion, the Lansky-Luciano syndicate gambling operations in Havana and Las Vegas would logicaly be included in a potential "post war" section. This would probably be placed in a present day section. MadMax 19:06, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

William Pierce wrote the Turner Diaries[edit]

The William Pierce linked here is a noted neo-Nazi with terrorist ties who wrote the book that inspired the Oklahoma City bomber, as his own Wikipedia article attests to. I don't see why such a source should be linked to without at least a disclaimer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unwound (talk • contribs)

I've placed a template regarding that specific link. I've also brought the issue up at WikiProject Organized crime if you would like to comment on the matter. MadMax 07:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Recent page move[edit]

moved Jewish-American organized crime to American Jews and organized crime: less conspiritorial and almost accusatory title. User:IZAK

I moved the page back to Jewish-American organized crime to keep in line with similar articles such as Irish-American organized crime, Greek-American organized crime, African-American organized crime, etc. This issue has been hashed out time and again in regards to organized crime-related categories and lists, however this list follows the set naming convention of organized crime lists. If you disagree with this convention, you are free to discuss the matter at relevent projects such as WP:CRIME. However, when making major changes to an article, please consider discussing such changes at the article's talk page first. Thanks. MadMax 12:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

IZAK,

The Irish Mob article should be split into seperate articles, specificaly between international and U.S. organized crime groups, however that is another issue altogether (the same can be said for Mafia). The title is no more "misleading" then any of the other ethnic organized crime pages. Virtually every ethnicity and country has organized criminal activity of some sort, this is especially true of the U.S., and neither this topic or its title are in no way conspiritorial and accusatory. This article contains numerous references to Jewish-American organized crime, in particular indentifying it as a single entity which is consistant with every other organized crime article on Wikipedia. The Monk Eastman Gang, the Yiddish Black Hand and the Lenox Avenue Gang are a few groups which engaged in organized criminal activity (just as their Italian counterparts such as Paul Kelly's Five Points Gang, the Morello crime family and the Black Hand or their the Irish Gopher Gang and Hudson Dusters). The Bug & Meyer and Broadway Mob, the Purple Gang, Murder Inc., etc. I could go on and on, however this has nothing to do with "labeling" Jewish-Americans or Judaism in general (this argument is flawed even moreso then regarding debates of Italian-American related lists). I should note nothing in the present article suggests POV and its history is covered up to the 1930s and 40s by reliable sources (which is specifically refered to as Jewish-American organized crime).

Also, the WP:CRIME and WP:CRIMEBIO merged to form a single project several months ago and covers both crime realated topics and biographies. This is mentioned on the project page, although its a common misunderstanding. Your claim however seems almost an unwarrented accusation, however. The topic of organized crime is well documented and is an area of criminology, I only suggested you notify a related project to discuss changing the naming convention of ethnic history articles relating to organized crime. MadMax 05:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • MadMax: Thanks for responding. If one reads all the articles you mention it is basically impossible to state where "Italian American and Sicialian American organized crime" ended and where "Jewish American organized crime" began since the two are so intertwined simply because Italian Americans and Jewish Americans immigrated to America at about the same time, shared the same neighborhoods, were shunned by their "upper-class" countrymen -- the Italians for their Catholicism and the Jews for their clinging to traditional Judaism -- so they had common bonds, sharing the same immigrant trauma and experience (and indeed the second generation often intermarried with each other.) So to pin Bug & Meyer and Broadway Mob, the Purple Gang, Murder Inc., etc. on Jewish Americans alone is only "half the story" at best and a lie at worst, because all you have to do is read the articles and you will see that in each case everything was done either in partnerrship with or at the behest of the Italian Americans who had a longer experience at fighting the state through crime via the Cosa Nostra (whereas Jews in Eastern Europe tended to be involved in socialist revolutionary movements against Czarist oppression and coping with pogroms.) So we are still left with the job of finding a suitable title for this article that will neither globalize the contents beyond what really happened nor indirectly demonize the Jewish people, which the present heading unfortunately does do. IZAK 05:40, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

IZAK,

I named the above articles as examples of Jewish-American organized crime groups, several of these acting seperate from Italian-American groups. Organized crime as we know it evolved from the so-called National Crime Syndicate, however before this time Italian and Jewish-American organized crime groups were seperate and, especially around the time of the turn of the century, were quite hostile to each other (note the Eastman-Kelly gang wars). I'm not disagreeing with your points on Jewish and Italian-Americans in general, however this article is in regards to organized criminal organizations prior and up to the partnership between Jewish-American and Italian-American up until the 1940s. Prior to this, there were seperate Jewish-American organized criminal groups which by and large operated in their own neighborhoods for example the decades long domination of the garment district of New York's Lower East Side. While groups under Meyer Lansky and others worked with Luciano and others in later years, the two are clearly seperate from each other prior to the Castellammarese War and only first working with each other during Prohibition along with other ethnic groups. The article title, and the subsequent naming conventions of similar organized crime related articles, applies to ethnicity not religion and I don't believe the title maligns Judaism or promotes some anti-semitic conspiracy theory (neither does the Irish and Italian-American articles in regards to Catholicism). This article covers the same area as any other ethnic-based organized criminal organizations on Wikipedia. Even if the title was offensive on a wide scale, that alone is not a reason to move the article title. MadMax 07:10, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

MadMax: The issue here is about accuracy and NOT censorship! The point is not to "censor" you or anyone, as your link implies, but rather a request that we somehow create an accurate name for this article that avoids either being or seeming to be a generalization about Jewish Americans or any ethnic or religious group, without removing any of the information in the article (although that too needs closer scrutiny for POV presentation.) That is why American Jews and organized crime makes more sense since "Jewish-American organized crime" creates too strong a verbal and conceptual linkage or intersection between Jewish Americans and the notion of "organized crime." A good example of what I am saying can also be found relating to how not to "link" or "intersect" categories at Wikipedia:Overcategorization#Non-notable intersections by ethnicity, religion, or sexual preference, where the guidelines state: "... people should only be categorized by ethnicity or religion if this has significant bearing on their career. For instance, in sports, German-Americans are not treated differently from Italian-Americans or French-Americans. Similarly, in criminology, a person's actions are more important than their sexual orientation. While "LGBT literature" is a specific genre and useful categorisation, "LGBT quantum physics" is not." Do you not see how your title goes against this? So far, most editors here seem to be agreeing with my proposal to move this article to American Jews and organized crime. IZAK 08:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I find this a rather useless debate. Jewish-American organized crime is a commonly used term. I don't think Wikipedia is meant to give a phenomenon a different name than what is generally used. I wonder if you would make the same kind of fuss if it was about Jewish-American philantropists. Fortunately those exist, and unfortunately Jewish-American organized crime also exists. You don't change that by calling it something else. - Mafia Expert 13:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, about that commonly used term, from Google: Results 1 - 19 of 19 for "jewish american organized crime", of which two hits are from Wikipedia, two are from answers.com mirrors of Wikipedia, two hits are thefreeonlinedictionary.com mirror of wikipedia, one hit is encyclopedia.farlex.com mirror of wikipedia, one hit is medlibrary.org mirror of wikipedia, one hit is totallyexplained.com mirror of wikipedia, one hit is reference.com mirror of wikipedia, and one hit is a page which identifies Israel, the CIA, and Jewish American organized crime as having cooperated to assassinate JFK. I didn't investigate the rest. Gzuckier 14:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well I did, one is Wright State University mentioning eleven books on Jewish-American organized crime; another is Penn State University in a course about the Administration of Justice as well as in the Jewish Studies department; another is the British Association for American Studies; yet another is an Israeli site (ynet) linking to the article on Wikipedia. Of course these are all thoroughly ant-semitic institutions and sites – are they not? If you do research you should mention not only what suits your opinion. - Mafia Expert 14:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Moreover, I did a search on Wikipedia with Jewish-American and got 1612 hits, and Jewish American 18,275. There is Jewish American literature and there are Jewish-American writers, artists, politicians, activists, entertainers, psychologists, photographers etc. etc. Izak, are you going to change all of those as well? - Mafia Expert 13:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In regards to books, the term Jewish organized crime is explicitly used in African-American Organized Crime: A Social History by Rufus Schatzberg and Robert J. Kelly (pg. 30), Criminal Violence, Criminal Justice by Charles E. Silberman (pg. 103), Crime: Computer Viruses to Twin Towers by Thomas H. Milhorn (pg. 217), Older Offenders: Current Trends (pg. 70) by Sol Chaneles and Cathleen Burnett, "Notorious C.O.P.: The True Story of the NYPD "Hip-Hop Cop" who Cracks the Cases of Tupac, Biggie and Jam Master Jay Investigations from the NYPD's First "Hip Hop Cop" (Page 24) by Derrick Parker and Matt Diehl, "Crooked Ladder: Gangsters, Ethnicity, and the American Dream" (pg. 173) by James M. O'Kane, " The Handbook of Organized Crime in the United States" (pg. 528) by Robert J. Kelly, Ko-lin Chin and Rufus Schatzberg, "Gotham Unbound: How New York City Was Liberated from the Clutches of the Cosa Nostra" (pg. 321) by James B. Jacobs as well as covered in numerours government documents most notably "Organized Crime: 25 Years after Valachi".
There are countless references and sources refering to Jewish organized crime, as well as the terms Jewish crime syndicate [ex. An Inventory of Promises: Essays on American Jewish history by Marc Lee Raphael, Jeffrey S. Gurock and Moses Rischin], the "Jewish Mob" [ex. "Crime and Public Policy: Putting Theory to Work" by Hugh D. Barlow] and the misleading "Jewish mafia" [James Mannion's "101 Things You Didn't Know About The Mafia", Rich Cohen's "Tough Jews" and "The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Mafia" by Jerry Capeci]. These terms are used specifically in descibing and documeting Jewish-American organized crime in the same terms as does any other ethnic group involved in organized crime. MadMax 17:41, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

MadMax: You are citing "sources" that can be debated and disputed and Wikipedia is not in the business of taking sides in larger sociological debates about criminology. Please see the guidelines for Wikipedia articles at descriptive names at WP:NCON and article title. I am not objecting to Category:Jewish American mobsters as individuals, but you cannot have a title that openly implies an intersection between Jewish Americans as a totality with the subject of organized crime. Sure there are Jewish gangs in America American Jews who are involved with organized crime and if you known of a Jewish mafia write about it (an don't let it redirect to Jewish-American organized crime as it does), but "Jewish American organized crime" as a heading alone is too broad, you need to focus it more. IZAK 23:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

IZAK, you say that Wikipedia is not in the business of taking sides in larger sociological debates about criminology. That is exactly the reason why the title should not be changed, because it is commonly used in academia, the media, and by Jewish American authors on Jewish American crime, etc. Changing the name would mean Wikipedia IS taking sides in the debate. The sources MadMax is quoting are valid and confirm that the title is correct. - Mafia Expert 07:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Move proposal[edit]

Proposal:

Move this article to a more suitable and specific NPOV name:

Support

  1. IZAK 01:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per IZAK. The Prince 01:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support to move, there is not even one Jewish Organized cirminal group.--Shmaltz 02:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment. If you read in the actual article, there are (or at least were) numerous Jewish-American gangs memtioned which acted seperate from other ethnic organized crime groups, as did virtually every other ethnic group in the United States, prior to Prohibition. MadMax 22:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support per WP core policy: WP:NPOV. ←Humus sapiens ну? 03:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment. Given the large amount of references given to support the article, I'm not sure I understand how this reflects a particular point of view ? MadMax 22:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support per WP:NPOV and all of IZAK's arguments. --Steven J. Anderson 04:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Per WP:NAME and WP:NPOV. Tomertalk 07:11, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Current name is ambiguous. Support move per WP:NAME. --Redaktor 07:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment. This article title is used in similarly related articles regarding organized crime, the name being generaly the most used (and neutral) term to describe Jewish-American organized crime. To change the article to its proposed name would imply individuals involved in organized crime and not criminal groups involved in organized crime which is what this article covers. While I understand the naming convention in regards to Judaism related articles, this article is related to organized crime in the United states and, in my opinion, should follow naming conventions used in crime and criminology related articles. MadMax 22:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Per Izak and WP:NAME DanielC/T+ 08:11, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  9. --ChosidFrumBirth 12:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Support the term seems to be in less common use than the opposers believe. Gzuckier 14:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]
    Comment. If you'll note the above discussion, as well as material referenced in the article itself, Jewish-American organized crime (or simply Jewish organized crime) is the most common (and neutral) term used term used by crime writers and historians. A list of leading books on the subject of organized crime illustrates this. MadMax 22:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Support as per descriptive names at WP:NCON and article title. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 00:02, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Support Well-referenced is not synonymous with NPOV.--Runcorn 22:17, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  13. --Java7837 23:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

  1. Mafia Expert I see nothing wrong with Jewish-American organized crime. The term is used regularly in the media, just as Sicilian-American etc. This seems to me to be a case of exagerated political correctness. Mafia Expert 13:31, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  2. MadMax While I can understand the nominators intentions, I'm simply of the opinion that the title of this specific article has as much to do with Judaism as Irish and Italian organized crime has with Catholicism. Judaism-related articles have generally accepted naming conventions as do organized crime related article and nearly all other topics on Wikipedia. It's my argument that this article is not related to Judaism as a religion and, like similarly related organized crime articles, should follow already established naming conventions of ethnic groups involved in organized crime within the United States. To make a special case for one specific article because it may seem "offensive", doesn't seem to be maintaining neutral point of view and implies that organized crime is composed of individual mobsters (in this case Jewish-Americans) and not groups and similar criminal organizations. In addition several of the references used in creating this article, among other organized criminal groups, specificly refer to the topic as Jewish-American organized crime. MadMax 16:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Oppose. There is Greek-American organized crime, Russian Mafia, Serbian mafia, etc. The article specifically discusses ethnically-homogeneous organized crime, not just participation of American Jews in various criminal activities. While the latter article is valid, I have yet to see a flood of articles Russian criminals in Germany or Criminal activity of Estonians in Malaysia, etc. Ind I bet to eat my beard that if IZAK's title will surface anywhere, we will have a cry "Anti-Semitism magnet!" `'mikka 18:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    "Greek-American organized crime" has the same naming problem as this article. "Russian Mafia" is a commonly-used term in English, synonymous with "Russian mob". I'm unfamiliar with "Serbian mafia", but my guess is that if that's used in the vernacular, it's based on analogy to "Russian mafia". I have no problem with this article itself, nor, I think, does IZAK or anyone else. Nobody's said anything about the article being an "Anti-Semitism magnet" here, mikkalai, except you. If anyone were to assert that it is a magnet for antisemitism, however, the objection would be to the name, not to the article. Anything about Jews is an antisemitism magnet...in fact it need not even really have anything to do with Jews outside some nutjobs' fanciful conspiracy theories—this article is no exception, but what attracts or repels antesemites really isn't the central theme of this discussion, nor has it ever been. Tomertalk 22:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    I fail to understand what's your problem. I said that the suggested name is far worse: by putting "and" into the title, you open the door to a flood of borderline petty thieves of Jewish origin and you will endlessly fight over notability criteria: whenter include a partiular case from newspaper or not. "Organized crime" is a well-defined topic and to reason to expand it. `'mikka 14:36, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actual proposals (instead of just gripes) for renaming the article[edit]

I think this discussion is being hijacked by the appearance of some kind of referrendum. As a proposal to move forward, instead of just saying "yes, I want to see the article renamed" or "no I don't want ~", perhaps it would be more instructive and constructive to discuss alternate names. While I don't really support the name, I suggest "Jewish mobsters". Since the article is so horribly lacking in reliable sources, I don't know how far this supposèd phenomenon has ever been anything other than an antisemitic flight of fancy,...but I do know that Meyer Lansky and Bugsy Siegel are "famous" Jewish-American mobsters. I don't see any reliable evidence that indicates that they, or their organizations, were bound by the common thread of Jewishness, but the fact that there are at least a few noteworthy mobsters in American history who happened to be Jewish seems me to warrant some kind of article. The idea, however, that being a Jewish-American had anything to do with their gangster/mobsterism seems me equally disingenuous as would be moving Mafia/Cosa Nostra to Sicilian-American organized crime...a name which implicates all Sicilian-Americans as complicit in the activities of The Mob, just as the name of this article as Jewish-American organized crime implicitly includes 6+ million Jews in organized crime. Tomertalk 05:16, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok Tomer, thanks for trying to take this forward. What is to be done with Category:Jewish American mobsters? IZAK 06:04, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Those axles need to give me a cut. I dunno...what do you want from me? They're mobsters, they're Jewish, they're Americans. Rename to Category:Rodafim? Tomertalk 06:06, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So what do you think of my original proposal of American Jews and organized crime where the "and" in the title both joins and separates the two ends of the spectrum in this thesis-antithesis ("Jews are 'good guys' but Jews can also be really 'bad guys'") as we strive for sheer neutrality, unlike the present title "Jewish-American organized crime" that is a "run-on phrase" that welds Jewish Americans, all Jewish Americans, with "organized crime." Or perhaps something entirely different is needed here, as you are trying to do. IZAK 06:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

IZAK, I think your proposal is flawed, but I can't think of a better name at this point. In any case, your proposal is far better than the present title...and as I've outlined briefly above, using the flawed names for other articles to support the present name of this article is...well, in a word, "flawed". I appreciate that people who are fascinated by criminal justice are pivotal in the writing of this article--I think it would be a gross miscarriage of Wikipedia if they weren't...but their perspective on the impact of the article's title is quite obviously horribly flawed. The article isn't the problem, its name, however, is. Your recommendation is a far better choice. What is your proposal for [renaming, I assume?] the category you mentioned? Tomertalk 06:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If there are Jewish American mobsters there is Jewish American organized crime. Why the problem with Jewish-American organized crime and not with Jewish American literature? Once again, it is not up to Wikipedia to change commonly used terminology just because some people feel offended. Jewish-American organized crime is commonly used in academia, the media etc. It would be very silly if that was not reflected in Wikipedia. Some of the arguments used here are flawed. Jewish American literature does not imply that there are 6+ million Jewish American writers, just as Jewish American organized crime does not imply that every jew is a criminal. Jewish American OC is a neutral term and changing it would be in contravention of WP:NOR - no original research. - Mafia Expert 06:52, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Mafia Expert: There is no moral equivalence between crime and literature, between something negative and something positive. For example, if one says all Italians are Mafiosi then that is an insult but if someone says all Italians are good cooks that is a compliment. And therein lies the rub that you seem to ignore, that the way the article is titled now it carries the implication, and even the allegation if you will, that somehow being "Jewish American" is interwoven with "organized crime" which is a lie and an EVIL statement. Not so when speaking of "Jewish American literature" which does not carry with it negative implications. Am I making myself clear? Perhaps the underlying problem here is that pernicious modern-day moral relativism is blinding everyone to the power of how words are used, misused and abused. We are not talking about a subject in taxidermy or displaying collections of dead butterflies here, we are dealing with human beings of flesh and blood with self-respect who care about their history and how they are portrayed (that is why WP:LIBEL is official policy.) It is also about morality, and values and one cannot lose sight of this dimension when making our decisions as responsible and mature editors (of course antisemites would think that this is all a huge joke and they always look to "burn the Reichstag" at every turn by besmirching Jews and others they just cannot give up hating.) That is why Wikipedia is so adamant about WP:NPOV so that subjects are porsented in a way that will not help one group lord it over another. By the way Mafia Expert how come you haven't pushed to have an article about Italian American organized crime? Maybe it's just because no-one around here wants to hurt the feelings of Italian Americans, which would be perfectly normal, so please extend the same courtesy to Jewish Americans. Thanks, IZAK 08:02, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Particularly in the United States, there is an entire literature on "tough Jews," mainly gangsters and boxers among whom Jews played a prominent role, often to the delight - even pride - of other Jews, especially Jewish men. See for example Rich Cohen's Tough Jews. It may be a hyperbole but according to Cohen: "if Jewish gangsters still thrived today, if they hadn't gone legit, if Jews of my generation didn't regard them as figments, creatures to be classed with Big Foot and the Loch Ness monster, I think the Jewish community would be better off." Check the review of Though Jews. In other words: Jewish American organized crime was an essential feature of the emancipation of the Jewish American community in American society. - Mafia Expert 07:52, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, so write about Tough Jews, that is acceptable to me! But it seems to me you live in a world of fantasy. But make up your mind, if Jews are so "tough" how come they have suffered from so much persecution and POWERLESSNESS for most of history? This whole subject of Jewish gangsters blows everything out of proportion. When anyone travels through any Jewish neighborhoods are they afraid of being mugged or robbed? Who is afraid to visit the corporate offices of Jewish lawyers and accountants? And if Jews are so dangerous how come everybody runs to Jewish doctors and dentists? How come people laugh at the jokes of Jewish comedians and enjoy the movies that Jewish producers cook up so skillfully? And if Jews are so dangerous, how come the Christians worship a Jew called Jesus who taught the teachings of turn the other cheek and love thy neighbor? All this talk of Jewish gangsters is one big JOKE!!!!!! It's about bogeymen that are contrived by cowards who can't face up to the fact that it is Italians who are the main operators of organized crime and that Black neighborhoods are the most dangerous, and that it is Arabs who are on Jihad, but yeah, sure it's always easier and more convenient to cop-out and involve the Jews and blame them in the discussions. What a sick way of thinking! and bound to fail! IZAK 08:16, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I do not accept your insults, and I think you are bordering racism here with your description of Italians, Blacks and Arabs, maybe you should read WP:NPA. Italian American organized crime is commonly known as the Mafia and Cosa Nostra, that is why it is under that title. But I will make re-direct page with Italian American organized crime, since you insist. Jewish American organized crime is part of the history of the Jewish American community in the United States, which has brought many positive and inspiring contributions, but also some negative. Why can't you come to grips with that? - Mafia Expert 08:16, 10 May 2007 (UTC) Cohen makes the point of pride for "Tough Jews" because of the stigma of defenselessness and powerlessness. Jewish American gangsters showed that this was not the case. Mafia Expert 09:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to fundamentally fail to understand the fact that the problem here is not the article itself, but rather simply its name. Cheers, Tomertalk 08:25, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to fail to understand that the essence of an encyclopedia is not to censor commonly used terminology. - Mafia Expert 09:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And I fail to understand what is the problem with the current name. IZAK pasionately wrote: is dangerous and misleading, for very obvious reasons, since such linking of certain ethnic and religious groups by their cultural names with "organized crime" etc. Wikipedia is not linkig. The link exists in real life. It is a culural phenomenon known as "birds of a feather"; it is present in every human activity, including crime. The most ridiculos case I've ever read in newspaper is, like, "Lebanese mafia in Australia". Can you imagine that? Where Lebanon and where Australia? I've seen criticism of classifying some crime as "etnhically-based" saying that tying some ethnicity to crime places creates an undue association of this ethnicity with crime. This is a straw man, misguided argument. While crime itself is international, gangs do often form by ethnicity or race. They don't form by level of income or by weight or length of penis. Ethnicity is among major classification parameters of people, and making it coincidental by inserting the "and" into the title is misleading and defocusing the topic. `'mikka 14:36, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is not simply about the article's name. IZAK believes the title (and by association other related articles) represents individuals who happen to be Jewish and are involved in organized crime. The article itself dsecribes predominantly Jewish-American criminal organizations involved in organized crime in predominantly and exclusivly in Jewish-American neighborhoods from the 1890s until the 1930s (in fact the article mentions their ethnic counterparts several times in the article so as not to imply this activity was limited only to Jewish-American mobsters). This is no different in related articles such as the Westies in Hell's Kitchen or the Morello crime family in Italian East Harlem. Furthermore this debate esentially forces related crime articles to fall under the naming conventions of a completely seperate subject. This debate is identical to claims of "racism" towards Italian-American organized crime related articles, debate I might add which have long since established ethnicity as a legitimate subgroup of organized crime (at least in terms of within the United States), and I see no evidence that this article "demonizes" Jewish-American ethnicity anymore than its related articles. MadMax 19:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So MadMax: Even according to you the title of this article is not accurate because it should then have stated clearly that it deals with alleged problems from the 1890s to the 1930s and be called Jewish-American organized crime, 1890 - 1940. And why am I insulting anyone when I state that "Italians who are the main operators of organized crime and that Black neighborhoods are the most dangerous, and that it is Arabs who are on Jihad" -- aren't those truer facts, just as you wish to record inflated facts about Jewish Americans here? IZAK 05:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC) IZAK,[reply]

I'm not sure what exactly your knowlege of organized crime in the United States is however I have read extensivly on organized crime in general and have contributed a number of articles on the subject. You may not be meaning to, however you are twisting my words around. I was refering to the article in its present state and, while you've claimed this article is about individual gangsters, I've pointed out this article is about criminal groups involved in organized crime. The article covers this specific time period because there are well documented sources to support it. There are varied reasons why this specific article does not continue past 1940, such the general agreement to resolve the long standing issues with the alleged National Crime Syndicate, however this is not some vague and controversal topic. Among established crime writers and historians, this is as valid and legitimate subject. As I stated repetedly, this has nothing to do with Judaism as a religion or Jewish-Americans as a whole. None of the facts in this article are "inflated" or exaggreated and cover the same ground as related articles. I've yet to see any evidence that the title is used to promote or even imply anti-semitism or that any content in the article which contradicts criminal organiztions involved in organized crime. MadMax 12:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, as far as I am concerned this discussion is closed. I have not seen any convincing argument to change the title, nor any new arguments to do so. This IZAK is just continuing because he likes to pick fights everywhere, just check his talk page, acting as some kind of Jewish American political correctness police. He already exposed himself in this discussion as an example of an exagerated case of Jewish chauvinism. - Mafia Expert 14:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to weigh in on this since I just noticed the existence of this subsection. Let me start by saying that I have no objection to the existence or content of this article. As you can see below, I just made a suggestion for expanding it. The issue I take with the title is actually grammatical. As it stands, the word "Jewish-American" is being used as a modifier for the word "crime." Now, there's no question that the gangsters mentioned were Jewish, and many of the gangs mentioned were Jewish, but is there any reasonable way to call a crime Jewish? Contrast this with Jewish American literature. There's no question that, for instance The Chosen by Chaim Potok is not just a book with a Jewish author, but a Jewish book.
Just as an experiment, I Googled "Greek-American organized crime" in quotes. I got thirteen hits. They fell into four categories.
    1. Wikipedia's article
    2. Mirror pages of Wikipedia's article
    3. Pages with links to Wikipedia's article
    4. Pages with links to mirror pages of Wikipedia's article
So if it's such a commonly used phrase, why doesn't it exist anywhere but here? Now let's try the same thing with "Jewish-American organized crime." Ok, 18 hits. They are:
    1. This article, its mirrors and pages that link to it and its mirrors
    2. Penn State University apparently teaches a course called "Jewish/American organized crime in New York City." Six pages mention it.
    3. The British Association of American Studies has an online pamphlet on organized crime in the US that metions the phrase in an endnote.
    4. Ziopedia mentions the phrase in reference to a bizarre conspiracy theory that the Kennedy assassination was perpetrated by the State of Irael, the CIA and Jewish mobsters.
Let's experiment a little more:
Now lets discuss the statement that there is a "set naming convention" that's being observed here along the lines of Irish-American organized crime, Greek-American organized crime and African-American organized crime. I can't find anything on this convention on WP:CRIME. Irish-American organized crime redirects to Irish mob. The Greek-American and African-American articles were both created in September of 2006 by the same user who moved this page from Jewish Mafia about the same time. This is not an attack on that user. He's done excellent work on Wikipedia. However, I don't think this qualifies as consensus as is evidenced by the existence of this discussion.
Please understand that (for me) this is not just a matter of someone being offended. This (for me) is a matter of reaching a consensus on the best name for this article. Personally I don't see how any of the alternate titles are any less offensive or any less likely to attract antisemitic vandalism or junk edits than the one we have now. I just want to see the best possible title for this article.
While I respect the fact that Mafia Expert considers the subject closed, I hope he will respect the fact that I and others consider it open and will continue to, until a consensus is reached.

Jewish American organized crime does not imply that all crime is Jewish. Everyone with a little common sense will understand that. It implies that within organized crime in the United States Jewish American gangsters played an important role in which their Jewishness and being part of the Jewish American minority, determined (to a degree) who they were linked with and how and where they operated. You also quote selectively, the Wright State site mentions eleven books about this phenomenon - and identifies it as a specific sub-group in organized crime. Since when is the internet the only source for determining if a certain terminology is commonly used or not? Even before internet existed Jewish American organized crime has been identified as a specific sub-group. There are some Jewish American crime writers, such as Leo Katcher who think the Jewish American gangster Arnold Rothstein "transformed organized crime from a thuggish activity by hoodlums into a big business, run like a corporation, with himself at the top." A gangster like Meyer Lansky played a very important role in the development of organized crime, as well. Their Jewish American background shaped to a degree the development of organized crime in the US. Maybe this is not reflected in the page yet, it should. Saying that the discussion should continue until a consensus is reached sounds like that you won't stop until the title is changed. Does your concept of consensus include that something stays as it is and that you finally will recognize that the title Jewish American organized crime is the right one? Otherwise this discussion is useless. The people who oppose the change of the title have come up with convincing arguments to keep it as it is, in contrast many of the people who support the change don't even bother to explain why and those who do only have flawed arguments suggesting that it would be anti-semitic, although they dare not use the word. - Mafia Expert 09:36, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Final note (I hope). I added some paragraphs in the article. I hope that takes away the worries expressed in the discussion. I tried to give a balanced description of the phenomenon. While researching the issue on the internet a bit more, I must admit that I was appalled to see the amount of anti-semitic hate sites that give totally distorted views about Jewish and Jewish-American organized crime. It really is disgusting, and I now do better understand the worries expressed above. Still, I believe we should maintain the title as it is, and try to give a neutral view. Otherwise the issue will be hijacked completely by anti-semitic idiots. Consider it as a healthy antidote to virulent anti-semitism. - Mafia Expert 19:09, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify, most of the information is based on books several of which I have listed in the previous discussion above. All of these books, condidered highly relaible sources, do use the term Jewish-American (or simply Jewish organized crime). The major reference used in African-American organized crime is in fact African-American Organized Crime: A Social History by Robert J. Kelly and Rufus Schatzberg. Also, while Google is a useful tool, it is not the sole indicator of an article's notability. Again, while I've provided a small list of book which use this term, I can also offer a number of other to support the other ethnic related articles.
Like Mafia Expert, I'm largely unaware of the subject being used as anti-semetism and I can understand the concern of other editors. However, I would respectfully point out that while the five searches do bring up hate sites, Jewish-American organized crime (without Wikipedia) brings 192 [3] which includes bibliographies and university courses in the United States and Great Britain (only one link is to ziopedia). A similar search with the same term on Google books shows 21 results [4] for Jewish organized crime (as these books are published and released in the United States, the subject is related to organized crime in the United States). As the title is in regards to the United States, I believe Jewish-American organized crime is the most accurate and neutral title as does others relating to this subject. MadMax 03:08, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The consensus as of 14 May 2007 (by: The Prince; User:Shmaltz; User:Humus sapiens; User:Steven J. Anderson; User:Tom; User: Daniel; User:Redaktor; User:ChosidFrumBirth; User:Gzuckier; User:FayssalF; User:Runcorn and myself) was to move the article to American Jews and organized crime which should now fit nicely with User:MadMax's and User:Mafia Expert's own admissions that the article could be misunderstood to imply antisemitism. IZAK 10:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No consensus has been reached[edit]

I moved it back again. No consensus has been reached. User:MadMax's and User:Mafia Expert did not admit that the article could be misunderstood to imply antisemitism. On the contrary: they sustain that the article is a healthy antidote to the antisemitism that already exists around the issue. Do not deliberately misinterpret my contributions. For your information: "Wikipedia's decisions are based not on the numerical fact of how many people showed up and voted a particular way. Attempts to change consensus must be based on a clear engagement with the reasons behind the previous consensus - not simply on the fact that today more people showed up supporting position A than position B." (see WP:CON). You also have been involved in another violation of WP:CON: "Asking for a consensus in a completely different 'venue' or section of Wikipedia, in the hope of finding more support for a failed proposal, is known disapprovingly as forum-shopping." See your attempts at Talk:African-American organized crime, Talk:African-American#African-American organized crime, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject African diaspora, Talk:American_Jews#Jewish-American_organized_crime, User_talk:IZAK#African-American_organized_crime and Talk:Greek-American organized crime, which are only there because you do not approve of Jewish-American organized crime. By the way, on Talk:American_Jews#Jewish-American_organized_crime there is also doubt about your proposed change by User:Wassermann: "There is no problem as I see it because "Jewish-American" is the preferred term." - Mafia Expert 13:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish American (hyphenated or not) is the preferred academic/mainstream usuage and is by far the most widely used term, so don't listen to them. These are the same people that lobby against keeping the article Jews and Judaism in the United States as the correct article title and 'settle' instead for the bogus "American Jews" EVEN THOUGH ALL OF THE OTHER JEWISH ARTICLES AREN'T TITLED THAT WAY, it's always "Jews and Judaism [by country]," but for some reason "American Jews" seems exempt from this precedent (same with the List of American Jews, etc). Also note that it is Category:Jewish Americans, NOT Category:American Jews...thus, the long-standing title of this category can be used as norm/precedent for this article and others. For some reason these people (even though most of them are genuinely good editors) just like to twist and revert valid information constantly, or else they just really like to start useless arguments and edit wars that get on other people's nerves. --Wassermann 05:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wasserman: This is not a discussion about "Jewish American" we all agree that it's ok as a term and as a notion. The discussion here is about the way "Jewish American" is used in the heading of this article (see my response/s to MafiaExpert). It's not "always" "Jews and Judaism by..." which is usually ONLY used when there is little information for one article about "Jews" only or "Judaism" only in one country. Otherwise articles, when there is lots more information, articles are divided into various sub-articles. Have you read my response to you on my talk page at User talk:IZAK#Moved page ---> American Jews to Jews and Judaism in the United States which explains the criteria behind many articles about Jews and Judaism in countries. Let me know if you have, ok? IZAK 06:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

MafiaExpert: So far I have not reached the point of a "failed proposal" so quit the false comparisons. Why the Jews, Greeks and Blacks are "blessed" with crime articles about them headed as African-American organized crime and Greek-American organized crime (created by MadMax (talk · contribs)) and this one in Category:Organized crime groups is a pure mystery at this point. Will there be an entry of "xyz-American organized crime" for every one of the approximately 150 ethnicities in Category:Ethnic groups in the United States? (I can't wait for Arab-American organized crime; Polish American organized crime; German American organized crime; Irish American organized crime; Native American organized crime ad infinitum ad nauseum --that should be a lot of fun...) So if only three ethnic groups have been targeted with such article headings, then there is nothing wrong in going to the Wikiprojects and pages that deal with those three suspiciously chosen groups and ask them for their feedback. I did this openly and there is no other way to do it as it effects them as much as it does American Jews. So much for your red herring. As for the Usage of "Jewish American" as I have stated and I will repeat it, and I hope you can see the point without jumping up and making false accuations yet again: If one says that Italian Americans are involved in the Mafia that is a negative statement (even open to WP:LIBEL) whereas if one says that Italian Americans are good cooks that is a positive statement. So not all usages of the term Italian Americans aer equal. Similarly with Jewish Americans, there is nothing wrong with that term and that is not the point of my objections. The problem is that by the laws that govern (a) the English language, (b) logic, and (c) morality (but let's not worry about morality too much, right?) the way one phrases and heads topics is crucial to it MEANING, IMPLICATIONS, and USAGES. Thus the use of the term "Jewish American" or "American Jews" is fine, but to then create an English run-on phrase such as "Jewish-American organized crime" has a possible MEANING and IMPLICATION that all Jewish Americans run or are somehow or other connected to something very negative - "organized crime." You have rejected the input and consensus of other editors that I have noted above and you have reverted the article arbitrarily. IZAK 06:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hate site[edit]

Deleted external link to www.thebirdman.com, an extremist, white supremacist hate site. --Steven J. Anderson 04:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Looking over the webpage in question, I don't see anything specifically implying white supremecy or anti-semitism. The page contains a number of citations from what I can tell are from reliable sources. MadMax 04:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
MadMax, are you are simply clueless about what "White Liberation" means, or you are trying to deceive the reader? ←Humus sapiens ну? 04:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If I've offended you, I apologize. However, I'm not sure how I'm being disruptive. If I've missed something obvious in the article, I would certainly want to know if I'd made a mistake. I hope you'll note, I did refrain from restoring the article to discuss the issue. MadMax 05:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Every people is entitled to their fair share of criminals, but the title "Jews-Crime&Fraud&QuestionablePractices" smells bad. Take a look around that website. ←Humus sapiens ну? 05:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Um MadMax: The home page of that site is this (see bottom and click on "Return to Home Page"): When Victims Rule: A Critique of Jewish Pre-Eminance in America which seems pretty clear as to what it's goals are...shall I say more? IZAK 05:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

MadMax, let's try to talk about this honestly and directly. Here's the url for the site I deleted: http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Others/Others-Doc-Jews/+Doc-Jews-Crime&Fraud&QuestionablePractices/AmazingHistoryOfJewishCrime.htm. Take out everything after "org" and you have this: http://www.thebirdman.org. That's the homepage for the website where the page you're defending is located. Now go there and tell me what you see. (Waiting) That's right. A white supremacist hate site. Ask yourself, MadMax, is this really a site to which Wikipedia's editors should be directing its readers for reliable information about anything? Do you really think that because it all seems to be sourced it can be trusted? Did you check any sources to see if they're being quoted accurately or if they even exist? Do you trust a white supremacist do that? Does it matter that the page consists of the page creator's analysis and synthesis of what may or may not be reliable or even real sources? I'm sure you can catch on to some of these ideas if you try.
Oh, one more thing, you don't get to invent your own rules about what other editors can do to your favorite pages. That violates WP:OWN. And if you try, no one is bound by them. If you look at my edits (there are a lot, mostly small), you'll see that I seldom make big changes to controversial articles without seeking consensus first, but that link was beyond ridiculous. I or any other editor has the power, the authority, and the right to remove it on sight without discussion. However, since you expressed concern, I made a note here as a courtesy, yet you still reverted to include an obviously unreliable source. That's not playing nice. It looks like you've done a lot of good work here on Wikipedia, though, and I hope to interact with you in the future under more propitious circumstances. --Steven J. Anderson 06:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
First, I did not defend the site. I asked the issue to be discussed first as requested by a message in the "external links" section. Your claims, as I understood them, were based on the page which claimed contained hate speach. I didn't see any, however I assumed good faith and attempted to discuss the matter. If you'll notice above, an identical situation occured when an anonymous editor removed an external link claiming it to be a hate site. The appropriate template was added until a user confirmed it and it was removed. Removing external links without cause is generally seen as vandalism and the message is used to distinguish between the two. I apologize if you misinterpreted my intentions, however I had intended to restore the link so I and others could view it so as to contribute to the discussion. I certainly can admit maing a mistake, however you seem to implying my actions were malicious which they were not.
I'm not making up my own guidelines and neither am I trying to "keep control" over this article. I generally edit criminology and organized crime-related articles, and have gone so far as to help establish a WikiProject on this subject. However, a lot of edit wars and vandalism are attributed to the topic and for editors to delete information without reason or evidence save for a claim that its offensive in some way (this is especially true of Italian-American mobsters and crime families), its not uncommon for editors to look into the matter further. If you'll note this and previous instances, the issue was for the discussion of an external link which either contained information cited in this article or contained relevent information to the topic. Had I removed a link from an article claiming it was a hate cite, I would expect at least editor would at least question me about it. MadMax 07:10, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I just re-read what I wrote. I guess I didn't WP:AGF and got a little hot under the collar and a little too in love with the sound of my own voice. And part of that was flirting with WP:NPA, too. Apology accepted and returned. --Steven J. Anderson 07:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
On second thought, Max, I just took a look at the history and saw that you posted not only the link that you say you're not defending, but also the link to the material from the white supremacist antisemite, William Pierce. There's no need to keep the link on the page while discussing its merits (although that link has no merits to discuss). Wikipedia's editors know how to look at edit histories. When a link is that egregious and beyond the pale, any responsible editor will remove it until it's existence can be justified. Also, I didn't "remove an external link "without cause." I explained my cause, both here and in the edit summary. That cause was not a "claim that it's offensive in some way," but a clear, obvious violation of WP:EL and WP:RS with regard to fringe websites.
However, I've just taken a look at your edit history, and can honestly say that, outside of your edits to this article, I can't see any evidence of an antisemitic agenda on your part, so I'm going to continue to WP:AGF. However, it will be to your advantage to recognize that editors who are accustomed to working on Judaism-related articles have long experience with users who "just innocently raise the question" of whether there might be racist material in the Talmud, or whether there just might be a Jewish conspiracy for world domination, or whether we've fairly portrayed the views of folks who think that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a genuine document, and shouldn't we leave the material up while we discuss it? The answer to that question is no, and if my assumption of good faith is justified, you'll have no trouble seeing why.
Again, Max, follow those links and you'll see why neither you, nor I, nor any responsible editor would want them to stay on this article or any other that we had a hand in. I'm honestly not trying to start a feud or a flame war or anything else, and I do wish you the best experience possible on Wikipedia. --Steven J. Anderson 03:12, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First, I never denied that I originally added that particular link and as I pointed out earlier the specific webpage contained no noticable statement of anti-semitism (in fact Albert Fried's "The Rise and Fall of the Jewish Gangster in America" is one of several sources cited in the article). If you notice prior discussions on this talk page, I made no objections in similar cases once the subject was discussed. I did not defend these sites when these questions were raised and nor did I oppose their removal once these were pointed out. In fact, going over the article by William Pierce, which cited referenced by the FBI among others, it was my opinion that it was not a relevent source as it related to organized crime in the U.S. As I've mentioned earlier, those discussions can be viewed on this talk page if you care to re read them.

Its very easy to remove an external link for various reasons, however while this may be in violation of good faith, refering to a website as a hate site is a serious accusation without proof. Even your above statement implies I have made anti-semitic statements despite the fact that you've no knowledge of my own ethnic or religious background. If I were to go onto any other article on Wikipedia such as George Bush and remove an external link with the same reason you gave, I'm assuming most editors would at the very least question me nevermind ask me for proof. MadMax 11:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Purple Gang[edit]

On a slightly less contentious note, I think this article could use a little information on Detroit's notorious Purple Gang. I linked it in "See also." Those guys ruled the illegal traffic of booze across the Detroit River from Canada into the U.S. Nobody messed with them, not even Capone. Now, there were some tough Jews. --Steven J. Anderson 20:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So what's all this anti-Semetism thing?[edit]

I don't get what's wrong with Jewish-American organized crime. Jewish Americans criminals were (and still are) involved in organized crime (fact), just like any other ethnicity. Jewish Americans did form their own gangs that were predominantly Jewish, being how in the 19th and early 20th centuries Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe and other places formed ethnic enclaves in the ghettos. This is also a fact. Jewish American organized crime does not imply some sort of huge international Jewish conspiracy as claimed by jewwatch.com and other places. It just means organized crime that is Jewish-American in it's nature. I can't think of a more PC term to describe it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicknackrussian (talk • contribs)

WikiProject class rating[edit]

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 21:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A DREAM FOR HITLERITES[edit]

THIS PAGE IS NOTHING BUT ETHNIC SLANDER AND APOLOGIA OF RIGHT-WING ANTI-SEMITIC PHANTASIES. IT MUST BE SPEEDILY DELETED TO STOP RACIST BIGOTRY.

IMAGINE SOME NEONAZI MILITANT READS THIS PAGE AND STARTS BOMBING SYNAGOGUES OR SOMETHING. WHO WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE? WIKIPEDIA MUST TAKE ITS STAND AGAINST ANTI-SEMITIC PHANTASIES. BARELY A HANDFUL OF JEWS HAS NEVER BEEN INVOLVED IN ORGANIZED CRIME ACTIVITIES IN AMERICA AND GLOBALY. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.1 (talk) 12:32, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pfff, don't you think you are exaggerating a bit? - Mafia Expert (talk) 22:46, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Being partially of Welsh descent I demand that all references to alleged Welsh crime be deleted from Wikipedia; a page like this, Murray Humphreys, IS NOTHING BUT ETHNIC SLANDER. Imagine some neo-Norman militant reads this page and starts bombing chapels or something. Who would be responsible ? WIKIPEDIA MUST TAKE ITS STAND AGAINST ANTI-CYMRIC PHANTASIES.Claverhouse (talk) 20:35, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This page is not anti-Semetic in any way. There was a Jewish Mafia and they were known as the Kosher Nostra based on the Cose Nostra title of the Italian Mafia. This is not a racist article in any way, but citing the facts. Gangs often add racist terms in their titles to soudn tougher. This is the case with the title "Kosher Nostra". TomUSA 16:13, 9 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Anti semitism[edit]

You're kidding me. First of this article should be renamed to jewish mafia. Just as the Russian Mafia and Italian mafia are named "mafia" and not oranized crime. The history aired Histories Mysteries about 5 points gangs and says it is "The jewish mafia". Damn history channel and their anti semetic programs. GET THEM ANTI DEFAMATION LEAGEUE!!!!!! How absurd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.223.101 (talk) 21:48, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article is very balanced and does not attribute organized crime to Jews in any way. Don't you think you are somewhat out of touch with reality, my dear friend? - Mafia Expert (talk) 22:49, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I dont think hes saying that the information does not pertain to organized crime to Jews.

From my understanding Jewish-American organized crime seems to be a euphemism in comparision to Irish mob "Mafia" for Italians and jews are crafty and write Jewish American organized crime. THEY'RE ALL MAFIAS! Irish Mafia Jewish Mafia Italian mafia/mobs/etc....

Links to be avoided - Links to blogs, personal web pages and fansites[edit]

Links to be avoided Links to blogs, personal web pages and fansites

Evenmoremotor (talk) 16:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)Evenmoremotor[reply]

Frank Sinatra & Frank Rosenthal[edit]

What's the significance of Frank Rosenthal with Frank Sinatra on the Frank Rosenthal Show? Axl ¤ [Talk] 17:36, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Causes[edit]

In the After World War II section, we have: Jewish-American organized crime derived from dislocation and poverty, where language and custom made the community vulnerable to undesirables, the sort of thing that fosters criminality among any other ethnicity in a similar situation. Do we have any evidence for this? The reference that was recently added, Christopher Adamson's "Defensive localism in white and black: a comparative history of European-American and African-American youth gangs" [5], deals primarily with youth gangs, rather than adult criminal organizations, and contrasts black and white gangs, rather than positing a universal cause of criminality. If I had to make a guess, I would say that dislocation from the old communities and their institutions, and a historical reluctance to turn in fellow Jews to civil authorities might have played a bigger role than did poverty, but that is just a guess. I don't think the Adamson article sheds much light on this. Peter Chastain (talk) 11:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Weird Language[edit]

{Jewish American organized crime is part of an entire literature, particularly in the United States, on "tough Jews."}

The whole paragraph that starts with this phrase makes no sence. I rewrote it myself (my rewrite was removed). So someone put a lot of periods in this wacky paragraph. It still makes no sence. What are you trying to say? That there is a lot of literature about Jewish Americans who are 'paticularly in the United States' and are tough? Comon lets get some consensus since the author of this wonderful prose reverts any attempt to change it. Meishern (talk) 11:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Organized crime ?[edit]

Why isnt it (this article) called Jewish Mafia? Italian Mafia, Jewish Mafia.... It's (the italian mafia article) not Italian organized crime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.254.81 (talk) 18:26, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish Crime Wave in Early 20th Century New York[edit]

Alright so out of 100 arrests 16% were Jews. Who were the other 84%? 30% Italians, 40% Irish? If 16% of all arrestees being Jews is considered a crime way, what would 40% of all arrestees being Irish should be considered? a crime tsunami? How about the present day (2010) murder arrest statics in New York: 64.9% are black, 27.2% are hispanic, 7.3% are white. Does that mean that whites are causing a crime wave? (ref http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2008/09/18/2008-09-18_blacks_latinos_lead_crime_stats__nypd-2.html) 64.9% is a crime wave. 16% is definitely not. I think the whole sentence should be removed since its POV and biased. Meishern (talk) 03:02, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree. It is properly referenced. - DonCalo (talk) 07:43, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that there is a reference from an article written by a distinguished professor of sociology. i will look for a different distinguished professor. On this topic I am sure there are a lot of articles. I am not going to do any reverts or edits, until I have something solid that refutes the misguided view that 16% arrest rate should be described as 'a crime wave'. Cheers! Meishern (talk) 09:47, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, that is the way to handle these things. Looking forward to your contribution. - DonCalo (talk) 17:30, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You were right. The crime wave was an urban legend, but believed to be true. The section has been edited to reflect that although many thought there was a Jewish crime wave, in fact there was not. - DonCalo (talk) 19:12, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Don, I think we are editing at the same time. I am gonna pause, since I am getting confused, who wrote what. My idea was for me to rewrite, polish it a little, and then you get into article re-shaping and editing it (or vice versa) then i again do it. Its just some of the sentences in the article (from long ago, not you) are grammatically incorrect, run-on sentences, same information being repeated in every section etc. What do you think? Meishern (talk) 12:48, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, you go first and I will have a look at it later. - DonCalo (talk) 14:27, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No. You go first. I got final exams this week. I cant do anything constructive. Thinking of blocking Wikipedia so I study instead of editing. lol. Cheers! Meishern (talk) 16:35, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

SKetchy[edit]

This article is not neutral. Too much personal "insight"...this isn't supposed to be your take on the jewish mafia. Please just give the information and not your lame analysis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.90.69.215 (talk) 00:31, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-Semitic[edit]

Why are people who don't want Jewish immigration because of all the Jewish mobster crime it brings in called anti-Semitic in this article? Do Italians whine constantly about how nobody loves them and that people are bigots because Italian immigrants are criticized for something negative? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.12.187.97 (talk) 23:50, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

ban this antisemitic claptrap[edit]

This whole article is vile antisemitism. 84.3.160.86 (talk) 18:35, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Right, you're not even Jewish. You're Hungarian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.143.192 (talk) 12:29, 4 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Frat article[edit]

What exactly does a Jewish fraternity committing vandalism have to do with Jewish-American organized crime? I think that the section should be removed--Donovan Ellis (talk) 23:17, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish Mafia[edit]

I was redirected here from Russian chanson in which reads "These songs are often set in the city of Odessa, where the Jewish Mafia was characterized as being particularly cheerful and colorful". It seems a shame then that this article stands in place of a dedicated one for Jewish Mafia.

Is there an easy way to see what [[Jewish Mafia]] might have looked like when it was linked from Russian chanson? Leboite (talk) 10:58, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Monk Eastman wasn't Jewish[edit]

As the title says, Eastman wasn't Jewish, he was probably of English descent as stated in multiple sources 37.208.32.56 (talk) 19:18, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Crime and Violence[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2023 and 15 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): P!neapp13 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: 34adel.

— Assignment last updated by Ruby2017 (talk) 19:58, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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