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The portrait described appears to be of Annette Vallon not Caroline? What is requested? --Traveler100 (talk) 07:55, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Whoops, thanks for this, senior moment. I have amended accordingly. The Vauchelet painting would be pleasant if it can be tracked down. There are images of Caroline as well, who was said to bear a striking resemblance to Wordsworth (Legouis (1922) p. 107), but the ones I have seen reproduced in books and the single one I can find on the internet, are not worth uploading I think. DaftOldBat89 (talk) 11:24, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Is this it?Portrait of Annette Vallon--Traveler100 (talk) 13:58, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if it is. I have seen it on the internet but I'm wary of using it as no real source is given for it and the 'presumed' isn't encouraging' Legouis mentions a portrait by Vauchelet in the Versailles museum and I was hoping for something more like this from Vauchelet, which indeed might be the one (unfortunately it's one of those pernicious art auction pages where you have to pay a fee to get the details). This week I shall try and get hold of a copy of Legouis' 1922 book and look at the plate there (it's not reproduced in the Google Books archive).
But don't let me dissuade you from uploading the image to the article if you feel confident about the source. I know it comes from a novel about Annette that might be worth mentioning. I haven't read it myself.
Thanks for uploading the image to Commons. What a joy that is! DaftOldBat89 (talk) 17:04, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Dorothy's writings did inspire William's composition of the sonnet but unless they also inspired Turner's paintings or vice versa then those images have no connection with or relevance to this article other than the coincidence that they are both about Calais. NtheP (talk) 22:51, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
... Dorothy's journal entries. Dorothy empahtically did not regard herself as a writer and published nothing, nor attempted to, in her lifetime. Her journal was maintained expressly to "please" William.
Firstly, per WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE "... images are an important part of any article's presentation. Effort should therefore be made to improve quality and choice of images or captions in articles rather than favoring their removal, especially on pages which have few visuals." But it's not easy to find images to illustrates poems. Novels are often illustrated by book covers or illustrations from within the book, but for most poems that isn't an option. Blank title pages are not very interesting.
Secondly regarding Turner, of course he was inspired by the Romantic movement and he knew and admired W's poetry as well as W himself, to the point of sending him a complimentary copy of his print of Weymouth Bay in deference to W's loss of his brother John in a shipwreck there.
Thirdly, per WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE "... Images must be relevant to the article that they appear in and be significantly and directly related to the article's topic". It does not say they should have inspired the subject of the article or vice versa, as you maintain, only that they are relevant, and of course these images are. Are you, for example, saying the only images allowed at Hostelling International are images that inspired the Hostelling movement (and vice versa)?
I'm going to restore the images and move to whatever dispute resolution process is appropiate if you delete them again. It would be more helpful and in the spirit of WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE if you were to suggest images that in your view were more relevant if this really is troubling you (and I really can't imagine why it does). Do you edit poetry articles a lot? Or are you really saying there should be no images here at all?
Really I would be obliged if you desist. DaftOldBat89 (talk) 23:47, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A random pick -- Yeats' The Second Coming (poem) is illustrated by a c. 1700 icon, but on your criteria that shouldn't be there. DaftOldBat89 (talk) 00:03, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You have quoted it yourself - "images should be relevant to the article they appear in and be significantly and directly related to the article's topic." So to meet that criteria please explain how the Turner pictures are significantly and directly related to this sonnet? If you can show that Turner was driven to visit Calais as a result of Wordsworth's writings then fine otherwise it's just background noise and distraction. NtheP (talk) 07:52, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The sonnet contains famous lines
... the broad sun
Is sinking down in its tranquillity;
The gentleness of heaven broods o'er the Sea
amongst the most celebrated in English poetry. Turner's painting depicts just such a scene, and one moreover directly of Calais within a few years of the poem's composition in the life time of Wordsworth. It is common for articles on poetry, and literature in general, to be illustrated by images which depict their content, as in The Second Coming (poem) I give above or Venus and Adonis (Shakespeare poem) to offer another example amongst legions. In addition Turner was directly influenced by English romanticism, knew and admired Wordsworth's poetry and was undoubedly inspired by the poem when he painted the picture. The image is entirely WP: IMAGE RELEVANCE compliant.
I don't need to show either that he was inspired by the sonnet nor driven to visit Calais to be WP: IMAGE RELEVANCE compliant.These are your proscriptive interpretations and they quite wrong, your "background noise and distraction" remark entirely unmerited. WP: IMAGE RELEVANCE is a positive policy encouraging the placement of images rather than their deletion. If you know of better images then perhaps you can suggest them on the Talk page.
I hope you will agree I have courteously addressed your issues here and in good faith. I can't imagine I need to add more nor need to continue the debate.
I see nothing further to be gained by continuing this discusion any longer either. We will have to agree to disagree over this, I've stated my point and will leave it at that. NtheP (talk) 15:58, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
