Talk:Doiran Lake

Article On Lake Dojran Needs Improving!

Anything about the recent archaeological finds near the lake, on the Macedonian side?

Additionally, the lake is diminishing due to irrigation and consequently flora and fauna are disappearing, leading to an ecological crisis. Namaan1168 (talk) 22:11, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

The last news about the archaeological site that you may be referring to is the recovery of a tablet with written script which is several thousand years old (6-6,500?). It apparently is similar to the linear alphabets found in Crete.

By the way, Macedonia is a provincial prefecture in Greece, and has been a Hellenic state since the Royal House of "Mace-don" or Makeo-thonos (in the proper Macedonian Greek) formed a confederation of Hellenic states in ancient times. The historical name of that country is Skopia or also Bovonia? if memory serves.64.252.6.62 (talk) 08:54, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

BTW, if Greeks love Macedonia so much, why not change the name of the country to Macedonia??? Do you also think Athens, Georgia has any territorial ambitions on Athens? Maybe they are also English because they speak English? I use the term "Macedonia" to mean the internationally recognised "Republic of Macedonia." The Greek province "Makedonija" was forcefully acquired in the Balkan Wars in 1912-1913 and was never Hellenic. It's so funny that Greeks or Hellenes always resort to mythology to "prove" historical facts, whether it be the grandson of Zeus, Makednos, or the falsification of the Greek economy. Namaan1168 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.221.113.213 (talk) 14:42, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Change article name? In English the lake is spelt Doiran not Dojran

The English language spelling is 'Doiran', including in Wikipedia the various Battle of Doiran. Same spelling in at least the majority of academic papers and in Encyclopedia Britannica [1]. In Greek it's Doirani, in Macedonian and Bulgarian Dojransko and in English Doiran. In google book there are 302,000 Doiran and 14,300 Dojran. Any further thoughts? Politis (talk) 21:06, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Doiran does appear to be more commonly used. I'll move it. --Local hero ^talk 23:13, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

North Macedonian part of the lake

Doiran is a lake located in Macedonia (region), and this word Macedonia is mentioned in the box. Later, in the history section of the page, we talk about the Macedonian front, which is in line with the Macedonia region definition. Then we talk about the sides of the lake, and we use the adjective Macedonian. There is ambiguity because the term Macedonia has been used twice in a different sense already. All sides of the lake are Macedonian according to the way we use the word Macedonia in this very short page, however, one side belongs to North Macedonia and the other to Greece. Using North Macedonian in this case is the only wording that solves ambiguity and is in line with WP:MOSMAC.

WP:MOSMAC states: In all other contexts, both "North Macedonian" and "Macedonian" may be used on Wikipedia in reference to the country (e.g. a North Macedonian company, or the Macedonian economy). In the absence of a clearer consensus on which of the two to prefer, it is recommended to use the longer form where ambiguity might be an issue (especially on first introducing the topic).

Local hero could you please explain what's your objection here? Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας 07:39, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

No, I'm just thrilled to have yet another editor obsessed with the North Macedonian minutiae on Wikipedia /s. I just adjusted the wording, hope we need not waste anymore time on this. --Local hero ^talk 16:41, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Local hero all my changes are based on WP:MOSMAC and all of them aim at improving the structure and the clarity of the text. We all work in this project by spending significant amount of our time. Please respect the time of other editors. You are the one who violates the decisions of our community to promote your own interests. This is against the interests of this project which is to provide as good quality of information to the reader as possible.

To remove the amibiguity:

1) In your last edit you replaced "North Macedonian" with North Macedonia's which is now inconsistent with the next sentence that starts with Greek.

2) In the earlier version, you added (western).

Both of these aim at avoiding the usage of North Macedonian but you attacked on me that I am obsessed. I have no obsession, but in this case North Macedonian is the only adjective that is not ambiguous for the very-well explained reasons above. And I don't have any reason to avoid using it. Do you have any reason to avoid "North Macedonian" which is the correct one in this case according to WP:MOSMAC. If you have one based on the wikipedia decisions, please report it. Otherwise, nobody here is interested in your personal interests, and please stay away of this page. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας

No obsession and yet basically all of your edits are about these semantics and not actual article content. I have adjusted the wording removing any ambiguity, I'm not sure what the problem is now? Yes it does avoid "North Macedonian" which, as explained in WP:MOSMAC#Adjectival form of North Macedonia is something we tend to avoid on Wikipedia. --Local hero ^talk 21:10, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Local hero Just to remind you what WP:MOSMAC says:

However, in line with the reliable sources, adjectives may still be used when referring to such institutions in generic terms (e.g. the Greek and North Macedonian prime ministers), especially where the possessive form would be grammatically cumbersome or unnatural. While reliable sources continue to use both plain "Macedonian" and "North Macedonian" in such contexts, the majority opinion in the RfC favored the fuller form, "North Macedonian".

In all other contexts, both "North Macedonian" and "Macedonian" may be used on Wikipedia in reference to the country (e.g. a North Macedonian company, or the Macedonian economy). In the absence of a clearer consensus on which of the two to prefer, it is recommended to use the longer form where ambiguity might be an issue (especially on first introducing the topic)

Local hero What do you mean by saying "You avoid North Macedonian which is something you tend to avoid on Wikipedia?" Do you mean you personally ignore WP:MOSMAC by promoting your own personal interests?

WP:MOSMAC clearly states that North Macedonian should be preferred in the cases that we discuss. If you understand english, you can read it. I cannot tell you anything more. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας

Dear single-purpose account, According to the official prescriptions of the Prespa agreement, the adjectival form "North Macedonian" is generally to be avoided... while in other contexts, both adjectives are to be avoided altogether in favor of the alternative of possessive constructions like "of North Macedonia". Here, we are using the construction "North Macedonia's", what's the issue? I adjusted the text again to improve the style, since that's such a big concern for you. We're done here, right? --Local hero ^talk 21:30, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

No, we are not done here. Every time you run out of arguments, you avoid using any adjective, so in your opinion we will re-write the whole wikipedia project by having as TOP priority to avoid North Macedonian. Now I know you have no arguments except that you attack to editors who implement WP:MOSMAC. So from this moment you are officially ignored. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας (talk • contribs) 21:39, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Trying to avoid the toxicity, I will just add that the article seems fine now and there is no ambiguity. If someone were to remove "North Macedonian" and still leave an unambiguous phrase, that'd be fine by me too. --Antondimak (talk) 06:06, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree, the goal should not be to add North Macedonian. But the earlier version used an adjective, and this adjective caused ambiguity, and it seems not many people cared enough to fix it. I was the one who spent my time to fix it, and since there was an adjective, I used an adjective too in line with WP:MOSMAC. WP:MOSMAC doesn't say that we should rewrite sentences in any possible way to avoid using North Macedonian, so I don't understand the motivation of people doing that. On another page, I will be very happy if some other users spend time to fix the ambiguity by rewriting the sentence and it's up to them if they want to use North Macedonia's or North Macedonian or of North Macedonian. But, in that case I fixed it, and the other user showed up only the moment s/he saw North Macedonian. This is out of the goals of this project.Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας (talk • contribs) 07:29, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, my version prior to the single-purpose account's outburst yesterday had an unambiguous phrasing. I'm happy to restore that. --Local hero ^talk 23:31, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

How is the ambiguity solved when you call one part Macedonian for a lake that has all its parts in Macedonia (region) (information reported in the box of the page)? It's really interesting that you fail to see that. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(^t_a^l_k)

The old version is not unambiguous. Both sides of the lake are Macedonian, given that the lake lies entirely within Macedonia. Also please don't unilaterally edit pages mid-discussion (in this case it was reverted to the stable version until the end of the discussion so it's fine, but on Doiran Lake the discussion hadn't ended). --Antondimak (talk) 10:00, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Indeed I brought the page back to prior to this dispute, as stated in my edit summary. Yes I can see how the original version is ambiguous; I'm saying this version on 3 August is unambiguous. --Local hero ^talk 22:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, this version is unambiguous. My "vote" then is equally for the 3 of August version and Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας's one. --Antondimak (talk) 07:31, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Antondimak Could you please clarify what are the two versions that you equally like? Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(^t_a^l_k)

Yours and the one that is currently on the page. --Antondimak (talk) 21:35, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Great, I also like the August 3 version, so I'll return it to that and we can call it a day here. --Local hero ^talk 15:51, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Well it's two votes for both of the two versions. --Antondimak (talk) 21:35, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support -- North Macedonian part introduced by Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας. Antondimak is the current version a result of consensus (maybe discussed somewhere else)? I see only Local hero opposing and no answer by Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας. I see 3 (out of 4) editors supporting the "North Macedonian part" version here. Cheers! Propilov (talk) 20:23, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Not really, there was no consensus. One editor supported one version and one the other. I saw no reason for opening this whole discussion just to remove "North Macedonian", but it didn't worsen the article in any way, so I found it acceptable, if useless. Such needless "conflict" should be disincentivised if it's happening on a large scale, but I saw no reason to vote against a non-negative revision in an isolated case.

If possible, may I ask how you found this discussion? You seem to have made 3 edits to Wikipedia in total prior to this comment. --Antondimak (talk) 20:40, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Do you find acceptable the current version that didn't receive consensus or you prefer the "North Macedonian part" version? I find the "North Macedonian" version more natural. (Well... I come from a Bulgarian village close to the Doiran lake and I have to write a thesis about lakes in the region of Balkans. Why does this matter? You can write to my talk page if you want to get to know each other. While doing my thesis I think I will have the chance to improve this page, it has very limited information, we can collaborate if you are interested.) Cheers! Propilov (talk) 20:59, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

I find both versions acceptable since they're both unambiguous. If I had to choose I would probably pick Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας's one, but I have no strong preference so I "voted" (we don't exactly vote in Wikipedia) neutrally so other editors could decide. I guess this version does have more "votes" now, but again we aren't doing a majority vote, and Local hero is a much more established account. I asked about how you found the discussion because often newer accounts whose only contribution is in a single topic could be labelled as SPAs, essentially nullifying their "vote".

Anyway if you want to move it to Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας's version it's fine by me, as Local hero's move was. I can attest to there being no established consensus for the current version, and if nobody objects in a timely manner the move would be permitted by Wikipedia's guidelines. If someone objects, we may need the discussion to be formally closed.

I apologise for all this "Wikipedia legalese", but this is pretty much the procedure that has to be followed since Local hero decided to dispute it originally. This is what I mean when I say that these useless discussions can discourage people who actually want to contribute... Please don't let this stop you, you can start improving the article whenever you want, and, hopefully, the "waiting period" will end within that time and you will also be free to change this specific part. --Antondimak (talk) 21:43, 21 September 2022 (UTC)