Talk:Djenné-Djenno

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[edit]

This article was the subject of an educational assignment in 2014 Q3. Further details were available on the "Education Program:University of Wisconsin - La Crosse/African Archaeology (ARC 312) (Fall 2014)" page, which is now unavailable on the wiki.

is a really sketchy beginning but something is needed on this topic. It is important not only for African history & archaeology, but also for our understanding of processes of urbanization. --A12n 23:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I added a paragraph on the urbanity of the Djenne-Djenno site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Freddyalfonsoboulton (talk • contribs) 06:02, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I added a total of three paragraphs. The first two paragraphs discuss the settlement of Djenne-Djenno with a particular focus on the functionalist as well as potential spiritual motivations for settling there. The third paragraph discusses trade via streams and rivers as well as the importation of iron oreAmoryk (talk) 20:14, 15 December 2013 (UTC)amoryk[reply]

Article expansion[edit]

In the coming weeks, I will be expanding many of the topics of this article. I will be focusing specifically on the archaeological excavations done at Jenne-Jeno along with their interpretations, as well as discussing its three phases of occupation and specific artifacts (including pottery and figurines) and burials. I will also be discussing the subsistence and population growth of the city throughout time. In addition, I will touch on the sites abandonment along with the possible connections with the modern city of Jenne. I will hopefully be adding pictures and discussing the city's importance to sub-saharan Africa along with the rest of the world. JLebowski94 (talk) 21:00, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to change name of article to Jenné-Jeno[edit]

I would like to change the name of this article to Jenné-Jeno. Within the article I will reference the French spelling, Djenné-Djeno. If anyone is apposed to this please let me know JLebowski94 (talk)

JLebowski94, besides map, you can try putting the black market issue and damage to the site in article but all that it is good.Lady Miyazawa (talk) 16:29, 6 November 2014 (UTC)Lady Miyazawa[reply]

Oppose
As with many renaming issues, the story is complicated. The background is as follows:

The article originally had the title Jenné-Jeno but was moved to Djenné-Djeno and then to Djenné-Djenno by @Dr. Blofeld: in July 2012 with the comment: "Dj sounds more correct for Mali."
The name of the town is pronounced with /j/ as the initial consonant. In French the letter "J" is pronounced as /ʒ/ and therefore Dj is used to represent /j/.
In 1830 René Caillié spelled the name of the town as "Jenné" in both the French and English editions of his book.
In 1896 Félix Dubois used "Dienné" in the French edition of his book and "Jenne" in the English edition.
Djenné was adopted by French publications - see postcards by François-Edmond Fortier (Some French publications used two accents, Djénné, eg Monteil (1903/1932))
A tradition was established of spelling the name of the town as "Jenne" in English (academic?) publications. (Crone 1937, Levtzion 1973 etc) This was done as recently as 2003 by Hunwick.
The 1981 article by McIntosh & McIntosh used Jenne and Jenne-Jeno (without accents). In subsequent publications the McIntoshes have ~~consistently~~ used Jenne and Jenne-Jeno. (or Jenné and Jenné-Jeno)
The town became a World heritage site in 1988. The English page uses Djenné and Djenné-Djeno. (NB Djeno with a single n)
Modern French books use Djenné-Djeno as does the World Monuments Fund.
Modern scholarly books written in English such as Marchand (2009) and Joy (2012) use Djenné-Djeno as do some guide books.
Confusingly, the hotel in the town run by Sophie Sarin is called Djenné-Djenno. (with nn in Djenno)
The proposed new name "Jenné-Jeno" is a hybrid form - ~~the McIntoshes do not use an acute accent.~~

All guide books published in English now use the French spelling for the town: Djenné. It seems anachronistic to use the earlier English spelling of Jenne which is employed by the McIntoshes for the both the town and the archaeological site. On Wikipedia it would be confusing and inconsistent. See WP:NAMINGCRITERIA. From my survey it appears that the appropriate title would be "Djenné-Djeno" with a single n in Djeno. This is the title used, for example, on French Wikipedia fr:Djenné-Djeno. (see Djenné article for full details of cited publications) Aa77zz (talk) 13:29, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Now corrected - some McIntosh publications include accent on Jenné. Aa77zz (talk) 19:22, 6 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@AA77zz Thank you for your input on the page renaming. The UNESCO website [[1]] Using the spelling "Djenné-Djeno" with one N. I am proposing that this spelling be used in the article. I would like to add a link to the UNESCO page for the Old Towns of Djenné, and I believe having the name be consistent with this would be beneficial. Are there any thoughts on this from anyone? JLebowski94 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 20:34, 6 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Pottery figurines[edit]

My understanding is that the exact provenance of the four figurines shown in the gallery is uncertain. The export of old figurines from Mali is controversial - see the 1986 article by the McIntoshes.

The Smithsonian claims that their sculptures come from the Inland Niger Delta region of Mali:

The Musée du Quai Branly mention Djenné but not Djenné-Djeno:

File:Statuette féminine-Région de Djenné-Mali.jpg Accession Number: 73.1991.0.39

In their description the MET state that their seated figure comes from Jenne-jeno. The Provenance isn't helpful - it is given as: "Philippe Guimiot, Erps-Kwerps, Belgium, until 1981":

File:Seated figure grom Mali, 13th century, Djenné peoples, Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1981.218.JPG Accession Number: 1981.218 Susan Vogel has described the statue in an article available online.

Without more details I'm suspicious of the provenance of the MET figure. Did it come from the Jenne-jeno site before the McIntoshes started their work in February 1977? Or was it taken from the site during the excavations?

The only statuettes that I'm aware of that are definitely known to come from Djenné-Djeno are those described by Susan and Roderick McIntosh in their 1979 article and in the book edited by Susan McIntosh published in 1995. A scan of the book is available from google - see the chapter on figurines and the images of fragments on pages 244 and 245. It is possible that one or more of the figurine fragments found by the McIntoshes are on display in the museum in Bamako so it would be possible to photograph them for the article.

McIntosh, Roderick J.; McIntosh, Susan Keech (1986). "Dilettantism and plunder - illicit traffic in ancient Malian art". Museum International (Edition Francaise). 38 (1): 49–57. doi:10.1111/j.1755-5825.1986.tb01015.x.
McIntosh, Susan Keech, ed. (1995). Excavations at Jenné-Jeno, Hambarketolo, and Kaniana (Inland Niger Delta, Mali), the 1981 season. Berkeley: University of California Press. ISBN 0-520-09785-8. Google "Full view" available here.
McIntosh, Roderick J.; McIntosh, Susan Keech (1979). "Terracotta Statuettes from Mali". African Arts. 12 (2): 51–53, 91. JSTOR 3335485.
Vogel, M. Susan. "Seated Figure". Metropolitan Museum of Art (New York, N.Y.) Notable Acquisitions 1981-1982. p. 66.

Aa77zz (talk) 13:14, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@AA77zz, thanks for the information about the figurines. That subsection of the article just labels those sculptures as being from the Inland Niger Delta region - perhaps we could also add a sentence or two explaining that the only figurines known to come from the Djenné-jeno site itself are described in the McIntosh references you've cited. I do believe JLebowski is planning on adding significantly to that section, touching on the serious issues involved with the illicit trade in Malian antiquities. Unfortunately we aren't located in Mali, and so photographing the figurines of known provenience in Bamako would be impossible. If you're able, however, that would be terrific. Ninafundisha (talk) 17:34, 6 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Aa77zz, my apologies - I now see that you're the one who changed the heading to read "Inland Niger Delta region"! Absolutely right - thanks for your help. Ninafundisha (talk) 21:08, 6 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Population?[edit]

The article mentions periods of growing and shrinking populations, but never actually says what the population is estimated to have been, even approximately. Are we talking 10,000 people, 100,000 or what? LastDodo (talk) 11:28, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]