Talk:Šubić family

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Do we need such a lengthy mention of Bribir[edit]

Since there is a seperate article on Bribir, I think there is not a need that there be such a long explanation of it in this article. If no one has any good objections to cutting it out I will.-Johnpacklambert.

I checked it and there is not really an article on Bribir, despite a link which makes it appear there is. That first paragraph of the origins section is hard to read and would benefit from some editing though.-Johnpacklambert.

I would like to know who has provided the original information and done all this research? The spelling of the places at the end of the article is intriguing (not currently correct). Sbrebrich —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.107.85.23 (talk) 09:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bribir discription[edit]

Bribir is an archaeological site in inland Dalmatia. It is located on a flat hill about fifteen kilometres northwest of Skradin, nearby the old Zadar road which goes through Benkovac to Šibenik. Under the steep rocks of its western side there is the source of the Bribirčica stream and from here the rich and fertile Bribir-Ostrovica field spreads out. The hill of Bribir, an ideal place to control the surrounding territory, was perfect for human habitation during all ages. The one who held it had control over all roads and approaches from the sea to the hinterland and so man has dwelled here since the Old Stone Age. There was a settlement as early as the beginning of the older Iron Age, expanding and developing during the Liburnian period, continuing during the Roman domination, and lasting to the end of the Middle Ages. During the Roman period Bribir, known as Varvaria, had the status of municipium and was the centre of one of the fourteen Liburnian counties. The Byzantine emperor Constantine Porphyrogenitus writing in the X century about the Croats settling in Dalmatia in the VII century describes how this people had organised their country into eleven counties (zupanias) one of which was Breberi, centred on site of the old Varvaria. The county stretched between the Zrmanja river to the W and Petrovo polje to the E, straddling the Krka and Čikola rivers. A line of hills separated it from the territory of Knin to the N and to the S it bordered on Skradin. It was held by a clan that in coeval documents is referred to as nobiles, comites or principes Breberienses. These Breberienses belonged to the Šubić tribe, one of the twelve which composed Croatian statehood in the Middle Ages and one of the six from which the Ban, or viceroy, was chosen. In recent history books whenever members of this clan are mentioned in relation to their prominent role in the XIII and XIV centuries the surname of Šubić is conferred upon them by the historian. This was not the way, however, that the members called themselves at the time. During the Middle Ages every man in Croatia bore four names: the name given at baptism, the patronym, the name of the clan which was also the name of the settlement in which it lived, and the tribal affiliation. In the period between 1069 to the destruction of the county by the Turks in 1520, the many personages of the clan that emerge from the original Latin documents qualify themselves as de Breberio preceded by their Christian name and patronym; only rarely do they add their tribal affiliation. The seal of Paul (+1312), the greatest figure of the clan, has the following lettering on it: + S(igillum). PAULI BREBERIENSIS BANI TOCIUS SCLAVONIE. Thus, in the vulgar the surname would be Breber or some variant (Brebir, Bribirski, Breberić, Brebrić). The XIX century erudite Croatian historians who wrote the first history books for the public opted for Šubić which, in the ardent nationalistic spirit of the time, sounded reassuringly Slavic as compared to Breber.

During the reign of Demeter Zvonimir (1076-1089), the mythical golden age of the kingdom of Croatia, the highest court offices of postelnik (comes camerarius) and tepizo (comes palatinus) are held by Budez and Dominicus, both of the lineage. During the XIII and XIV centuries Brebers are many times called to cover the post of count in the townships of Split, Trogir, Skradin and Omiš.

In the documents which have come down to us it is possible to identify six different branches of the Breber clan. The most illustrious of which is the one descended from iupanus Miroslaus Brebriensis, filius Bogdanizi (1184). His great-grandson Paul, mentioned above, reaches the peak of power towards the end of the XIII century. He is Ban of Croatia and Dalmatia, his rule extends to Bosnia, and with his brothers he controls the maritime cities of Dalmatia. In these regions he is the champion of the Pope and is instrumental in placing Charles, the firstborn of the King of Naples, on the throne of Hungary and Croatia. He is related to the King of Naples, the King of Serbia, the Da Camino lords of Treviso, and the Tiepolo and Dandolo patricians of Venice. When he dies (1312) his eldest son Mladen tries to keep the hold over the other Croatian clans but is unsuccessful and bit by bit loses lands, castles and towns. In 1347 King Louis confers on this branch of the Brebers, in the persons of Count Gregory and Count George, respectively son and nephew of Ban Paul, the castle of Zrin in exchange of the strategically important castle of Ostrovica, their last holding outside of ancestral Breber. This branch will be thenceforth known with the surname of Zrin (a Zrinio, Zrinsky, Zrinyi, Zrini, de Serin) and will again rise to heights of fame and glory with Count Nicholas IV, the hero of Szigetvar (1566), and with Count Nicholas VII (1616-1664), the Scourge of the Ottomans. Marcus Forstall, the secretary of the latter, compiled a history of the Zrins, tracing it back to the Brebers, to the tribe of Šubić, and from here to the Roman gens Sulpicia who, according to Suetonius, sprang from the love of Zeus for Pasiphae. A feeling for classical antiquity was a cultural feature of the Renaissance and the wish to establish a link with the great tradition of Rome was a common vanity of those times. The claim of the Zrins, however, is not totally groundless. During the Roman Empire Dalmatia was a senatorial province and would have affiliations with the patrician families of the capital. Varvaria was, in fact, a Roman municipium under Italic law. Other clans in Dalmatia like the Karin, the Gusić and some of the patrician families from the maritime cities also claimed the same origins.

The greatness of the house of Zrin ended with the famous trial of Vienna (1671) regarding the Zrinski-Frankopan plot. Of the last counts, Adam fell in the cavalry charge against the Turks at Salankemen in 1671 and Antun, after having brilliantly fought against the French, fell in disgrace and died in prison in 1703.

Another branch of the clan, descended from a Petrus living at the beginning of the XIV century, owes its rise to having remained unshakeably loyal to Sigismund of Luxemburg, the future Holy Roman Emperor (1411), in his struggle for the crown of Hungary-Croatia against Ladislas of Durazzo. Nicholas, James and John, nobiles de Breberio, are confirmed in their possessions, James is nominated Viceban, and they receive the castle of Perna with all the appurtenances. This family from now on known as Perenyi (Peransky, de Perén, a Pernya) will be numbered amongst the magnates of Hungary up to the XX century. Gabriel Perényi and bishop Francis Perényi fell fighting in the fateful battle of Mohacs (29th August, 1529).

Also destined to wealth and power are the descendants of Ugrinus (died 1335). Known under the nickname of Melić, then Melith, which later became their surname, they obtained vast estates in Transilvania.

Besides these particular offshoots which went their separate ways, a numerous kin continued to abide by the ancient holding of Breber. In 1324 when the citizenship of Zadar was conferred on the nobiles domini de Briberio, 190 members of the clan presented themselves for the investiture. In 1353 the Ottomans crossed the Dardanelles and began their invasion of Europe. In the XV century Bosnia was already a pashalik from where raids would be carried into Croatia-Dalmatia. The feudal levies and the clan warriors had no hope against the Turkish war machine and met their fate in the battle of Krbavsko Polje (1493). The castle of Breber was caught on the front between the Turkish, Hungarian and Venetian armies and by 1520 had become a desolate waste of rubble. Last news giving the comites Breberienses still in their ancient seat is in the diocesan synod of Skradin held at the time of bishop Archangel (1490-1502).

The Turkish terror displaced large portions of the population of Dalmatia-Croatia. Some sought refuge in the cities of the coast, some crossed the sea to Italy, others, especially those belonging to the nobility, resettled to the north in that part of Slavonia still under the crown of Hungary-Croatia. Their clan organisation definitely disrupted, the single Breber families settled in various places in the county of Zagreb (Turopolje, Beryzlawcz, Dragonožec,Turopoljski Markuševec, Chernkowcz, Threm, Jezenowcz, Koruscy, Zthobycza). Many Breber families are still living there to this day.

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Requested move 4 August 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved as requested per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 02:39, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Šubić → Šubić family – Šubić (Croatian: Šubić) means nothing in English nor by itself in Croatian. I propose to name this page to Šubić family (Croatian: Šubići, note the "i" at the end) which does have a meaning in both languages Marko Brkljača (talk) 14:47, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Peranski and Perényi same family?![edit]

I don't think Perényi and Peranski are the same family. Someone made a mistake there. Please, check data about those families! Walter9 (talk) 09:43, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wealth of information missing[edit]

There is a wealth of information in these two books but they are not included in the research for this article.

Zrin grad i njegovi gospodari by Ivan Kukuljević Sakcinski, 1883.

"Život Nikole Zrinjskog sigetskog junaka" by Matija Mesić, 1866. NikolaZrinski (talk) 09:50, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why have I been blocked from adding to this article?[edit]

I am interested in improving this article, which is pretty bad. At the top of the page, it says "This article includes a list of general references, but it lacks sufficient corresponding inline citations. " Unfortunately, I have been blocked from improving the article. Why is that? Because I have been critical about the editors who have done a bad job? I this how Wikipedia acts in "Good Faith"?


For example, the following resources are worth adding:

Mesić, Matija (1866). Život Nikole Zrinjskoga Sigetskoga junaka

Salamon, Ferencz, “Az elsö Zrinyiek”, Pest, 1865.

Sakcinski Ivan Kukuljević, Zrin grad i njegovi gospodari, 1883.

NikolaZrinski (talk) 14:23, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bribirščić?[edit]

Someone wrote "also known initially as Bribirščić"

The source for this is given as Matica Hrvatska: Zlatni vijek Bribira but the article has no references for that statement. Some research shows that a Damir Karbic uses the name Bribirščić but in his references, specifically the Historia Salonitana By Thomas (de Spalato) does not use that name

The Latin family name of Breberienses is credible. The name Bribirščić seems to have been INVENTED.

If there is credible evidence that the name Bribirščić was used by the family please let me know so that I can be better educated.

NikolaZrinski (talk) 15:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

From Matija Mesic's book[edit]

Miki Filigranski, you seem to be fiddling a lot with this article which is still of surprisingly low quality.

In Matija Mesic's biography of Nikola Zrinski, titled "Život Nikole Zrinjskoga Sigetskoga junaka"

The first chapter is "Njekoliko riečih o djedovih Nikole Zrinjskoga."

The second chapter is "Otac Nikole Sigetskoga junaka i njegovo doba."

This book "A History of The Croats - The Years 1102 to 1606" has the best family tree of the Subic family that I seen so far. NikolaZrinski (talk) 18:44, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Arguably" - Is that credible?[edit]

The article says "... were arguably the leading noble family of Croatia for almost 500 years."

  1. There is no reference for that comment and therefore it is not a credible comment.
  2. The Zrinski family WAS not "the leading noble family" for almost 500 years. It was ONE OF the leading families for centuries but the family gained significant estates (by marriage and royal donation) and status during the time Nikola IV Zrinski.

I recommend that you modify that statement - or provide a source for the "arguably". NikolaZrinski (talk) 14:33, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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